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Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist
In the Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist Show, Dr. Paul “Paulie” Gavoni looks at common issues or phenomena in our personal and professional lives, gives you his thoughts, sometimes rants about it, and provides you with practical solutions rooted in the science of human behavior.
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Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist
Enhancing Behavior Analysis through Motivational Interviewing: Building Connections and Preventing Burnout with Dr. Monica Gilbert
How can behavior analysts build better relationships and avoid burning out? In this episode, Dr. Monica Gilbert and I dig into the game-changing power of Motivational Interviewing (MI) in behavior analysis. Monica’s journey—from working with people battling substance use to bringing MI into her ABA practice—shows just how powerful reflective listening and open-ended questions can be. Not only do they cut down on client dropouts, but they also help build genuine connections. We’ll share real-life stories and practical tips on using these tools to boost engagement and create real, lasting change—without the burnout.
We also dive deep into what makes MI tick and how it’s different from the usual solution-focused methods. One key takeaway? Getting parents and other stakeholders involved in problem-solving makes a world of difference when it comes to creating lasting, meaningful change. It’s not just about techniques; it’s about having patience, empathy, and adjusting our mindset when working with different people—whether it’s parents, teachers, or anyone else. We even tackle the ethical side of blending ABA with MI, focusing on aligning with clients’ goals and staying transparent. Trust me, this conversation is all about building stronger connections, staying true to your values, and avoiding the exhaustion that comes with the grind.
If you are interested in learning more about Motivational Interviewing, check out Motivational Interviewing: Getting Educator Buy-In. Anika Costa, Matt Cicoria, and I spent a year researching, designing, and producing this course to make it as engaging and meaningful as possible. If you want to begin your journey toward becoming fluent in MI techniques, enroll in our course today!
Motivational Interviewing: Getting Educator Buy-In is a comprehensive online course designed to equip behavior interventionists is a goal-oriented, person-centered approach that encourages individuals to explore and resolve ambivalence toward behavioral interventions and change.
The Behavioral Toolbox equips those charged with supporting behavior change in schools with practical applications of the science of human behavior for making a positive difference in the workplace. In this case, the classroom and school!
Be sure to subscribe to Dr. Paulie's Heart & Science YouTube channel for a variety of content related to behavior science and bringing out the best in yourself and others.
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior Scientist show hosted by Wall Street Journal and USA Today.
Speaker 2:best-selling author, Dr Pauly.
Speaker 1:Okay, welcome back to Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior Scientist podcast. I'm your host, Dr Pauly, and I'm here with Dr Monica Gilbert. How are you doing today, Monica?
Speaker 2:I'm doing well. How are you doing today?
Speaker 1:I'm good, you know, just staying busy, just constantly busy, it feels like, and it's good busy because I'm living my values. I love the work that I do. I love disseminating the science of human behavior to help people, to help themselves and others, as I know that you do as well.
Speaker 2:You're living your best life.
Speaker 1:I think so for the most part. It's tiring. I didn't realize living my best life would be so exhausting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same, here I get it.
Speaker 1:Now, monica and I. I've seen her in the behavior world for a long time and we ran across each other at the latest ABAI conference, got to meet her, I got to meet her husband. We had a brief chat and we thought you know what we should do some sort of collaboration. Monica has been. You know, she owns her own company. She's an adjunct professor. She's done a bunch of stuff. I'll make sure I link her bio in there. But, like, from my perspective, she's the first person that I saw bringing motivational interviewing to the world of behavior analysis and I loved it.
Speaker 1:Now, in my mental health background I had been exposed to it. I always liked the concept of it. But then you know how it is in our field. It's like well, it kind of seemed mental, healthy, so to speak, back then. And then, as I researched a little bit more, I'm like, oh, this is like really good and supported by good research. So I don't know, maybe just talk a little bit about how you got into MI and then we can just kind of bounce back and forth on what it is and how it's helpful, because I know you have a book on it. I've got a course coming out through the Behavior Toolbox and my colleagues. So I'm excited about all this stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, thank you, polly, for allowing me to be here in your podcast and speaking about something that we can both nerd out about, because I didn't know you were like so into motivational interviewing, which I always love. So the way that I came into this field is because I was completing my doctorate studies and we had to do practicum, and I started practicum with the substance use population right Now they call it like substance misuse, but this was a very tough population to work with and my supervisors at that time were very well versed in motivational interviewing and they basically taught me everything I know. And when I started seeing you know the quote, unquote magic of what it does and how much less attrition there was with the patients and just all of this, I said you know the quote, unquote magic of what it does and and how much less attrition there was with the patients and and just all of this, I said you know what? Why don't we apply the same strategies into our ABA field? I owned my, my company, um, crystal Minds, when that started and I was one of those like really passionate BCBAs that had to tell everyone about our, about our science and, you know, try to convince them, but it wasn't working and I was like what the heck is going on? I'm, you know, showing them the graphs, I'm showing them, you know, the research and they're still not buying in.
Speaker 2:And then when I started, you know, applying motivational interviewing techniques, like reflective listening and open-ended questions, and really developing this curiosity for their challenges, when I was working with the um, I started seeing a change. I started seeing that I had built more rapport, that they were, there was more of that buy-in and there was just a better relationship and I wasn't burning out and we're getting as frustrated as I was. So then I said you know what? I cannot keep this to myself, I have to put it out there.
Speaker 2:I started researching and there wasn't a lot, there was really nothing on motivational interviewing. The only thing I found was a research article by Straschel and and Christopher I think it was. I'll I'll send it to you I'm not sure if you've seen it um, where they conceptualize motivational interviewing techniques into ABA, into, like, the language of ABA, which I found fascinating and I was like you know what? I'm going to do it. So I started developing different you know webinars. I started, I wrote my book. This was all during quarantine. So, yeah, then I just, you know, just developed this passion for motivational interviewing.
Speaker 1:Well that it is exciting. I will say that I think I really really kind of gravitated towards it after I read a book that's not on motivation interviewing Again, it was out there in the world and I'm like this is interesting, just the name of it's like, oh, because we know we have a lot of people that really don't want to change, and even if it's in their best interest. And I read a book called Spin Selling. We talked about this, I think a little bit offline, a while back. It was by Neil Rackham and what they did was they researched over 35,000 sales calls to find out what the best approach to selling is. And we think, well, we're not selling things here, and I don't like the term spin selling. It sounds very manipulative, but we actually are.
Speaker 1:With selling, you're trying to get behavior change. In this case, you're trying to get people to put their hand in their pocket and get out some money, and so we are trying to get buy-in for change. You know, even though it's to help people that better help themselves. But when you tell people all the great things that they need to do or suggest or push them in any way, people tend to be resistant. And so this question asking was like really powerful, and that's what SPIN is actually an acronym, and the best way I could describe it is that's just finding out what people's reinforcers are, what's blocking their access to the reinforcers, asking some other questions that uncover some you know implications of you know not changing, and then, essentially, you know coming up with a plan.
Speaker 1:You know what, if I were able to remove those obstacles to your reinforcers, would you be willing to change? And so when I frame them like wait a second, this is like I mean he doesn't say it that way, but I'm like this is like a form of motivational interviewing. So maybe you want to dive back into it, because it was like almost a short form of it and I found that motivational interviewing has a lot of moving parts in it. It's not, as I mean, it really requires a lot of effort and fluency to learn it, because, yeah, yeah, I mean because it's so, but anyway, so let's just start from the top there, because we've talked about it, can you just explain to people what exactly motivational interviewing is and then we'll kind of, you know, break out some of the benefits, some of the key tools in it, and et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so motivational interviewing is not like psychobabble. It's not like, you know, psychoanalysis or anything like that. I know people in the behavioral world that may not know about motivational interviewing, may think that it's just a psychological technique, but it's really. What you're doing is that you're having a conversation with that other person about change. That's really what it is. You're having a conversation about change and then you're using some of these skills in order to evoke change from that person.
Speaker 2:So I think one of the challenges that we face as a field is that we've been so solution focused, which isn't a bad thing. That's how we were. You know that, that's how we started in the field and that's you know what we do. So we're very solution focused. But what happens when we are constantly telling parents how to do an intervention and what they should do is that first they become prompt dependent on us and then it's harder to fade out services. Secondly, we're not really respecting their knowledge because they may have tools that really work out. So it's more like problem solving. We want to teach them to problem solve and come up with these interventions and in the meantime we're kind of guiding them. But we're working with them, so we're not doing parent training or parent coaching on them. We're doing it with them, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's, you know, for me it's been like leadership 101, coaching, like involve your stakeholders, right, we talk about this with assent and consent and all sorts of things. Like, we got to create a want for people, like they, you know, otherwise we're already behind the eight ball. That means we're already coercing them, we're pushing them. You know we have to, we I mean this is in my book position authority talking about this is leading and this is, you know, a has a value and behavior altering effect, you know. So this is an approach for having that effect and I know, like, you know it, it it centers around relationships and I know there's certain rules with it, right, because, like, we all tend to want to like push people in a certain direction. So, you know, I know there's like things about, like, you know, don't try to right the ship, so to speak. I think they call it the righting reflex.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, we want to make sure that we're being empathetic and there's a whole bunch of different approach to it that we're being empathetic and there's a whole bunch of different approach to it. But one of the things I found fascinating about it and behavior analysts should love this is that we are looking for data and the data is like this change talk yes. This change talk is like, informs us that, oh you know, like these-.
Speaker 2:Working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's working and, like you know, we're maybe ready to begin making some sort of plan at some point, because they're demonstrating like they're not ambivalent or resistant I know they don't like to use that term anymore resistant but they might be open to some sort of change as opposed to them saying, well, I think things are just fine with this, or I don't think this isn't going to work for me. The issue is not mine, it's other people, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, exactly so it's. It's very behavioral in that sense, in that if you really want to nerd out and take data, you can actually write down or tally the frequency of counter change talk or sustained talk versus change talk, and what we want to do is we want to put more emphasis on that change talk versus change talk. And what we want to do is we want to put more emphasis on that change talk and there's like different tools and different things that you can do to try to evoke change talk. So it is possible. So, basically, you want the person to engage in more of these change talk statements and that is more indicative of them actually changing their behavior. So let's do this, this quick little exercise, if it's okay with you, let's do it.
Speaker 2:So that everyone can kind of see the you know the magic in some way of using a simple technique. So I'm going to ask you, pauly, to think about a behavior that you want to change.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You got it.
Speaker 1:There's so many.
Speaker 2:Just pick one.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, yes, I've got one. Okay, you got one. Yes, okay, yes, I've got one.
Speaker 2:Okay, you got one, all right, perfect. So, in terms of how important it is for you to change this behavior right now, from one to 10, 10 being mega important how important is it for you to, well, first tell me what behavior do you want to change?
Speaker 1:me what behavior do you want to change? I want to. I want to stop. I want to stop helping people so much, right, and helping people to better help themselves. I'm really it's about prompt dependency, right. So to stop pushing my help on people like literally it's like them, I right.
Speaker 2:Okay, perfect. Well, you're in the right place. So you want to stop, you know, pushing your health towards people. So, in terms of importance, how important is it for you to stop doing that right now, from zero to 10?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's very important it's. For me, it's a 10. You know I just need to let stuff go. You know what I mean. And even if I think something's best, yeah, it's a priority in my life.
Speaker 2:Okay, and how ready are you to start doing that now?
Speaker 1:I'm ready to roll, I'm doing it, I'm working on it now you know.
Speaker 2:Okay. So let's say, just so we can you know, um, for purposes of this practice, let's say that you mentioned a seven. Something that I would ask you is so why did you say a seven and not perhaps a three? So why didn't you give it a lower number than the number that you're giving it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it gets me to reflect on my own behavior. Why, in terms of like me wanting to do it, or my readiness, or both.
Speaker 2:So in terms of your readiness. So let's say you picked a seven. Why would you pick a seven and not like a lower number?
Speaker 1:Oh, I've been thinking about it for a while, you know, I've like recognized how it hampers me, how it, you know I inadvertently hurt others by, you know, by not you know, engaging them more in their own change.
Speaker 2:Right. So right there, simple question You're able to come up with all the reasons for that change, right? A simple question, and you already came up with all these reasons for that change. So that's what we want to see. We want to see that and then build momentum on that change talk. So these are all the reasons why you would want to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know that they, they and they give you like formats to look for different I think they call it darn cat Right, desire, ability, reason, need you know? So there's some things that you look for like that. They just drop into these different categories. But the bottom line is a data point to show that people are maybe moving from being ambivalent, thinking like you know, or saying words like I'm not really ready for change or I don't think it's necessary, I'm fine with the status quo, to like, all right, the door is open. And when the door is open I know that you know, because part of the what is essential to MI are these ORS techniques, right, like you, just you know asking open ended questions, affirming which I would say it's like, hey, we really want to reinforce that kind of change talk. Yes, you know, keep it going in in the right direction. Right, I mean, that's part of like, we're kind of.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So affirmations it's I like to call it not just a cheerleader effect, right?
Speaker 2:So you're not just saying like, wow, good job, you're so good at this, but it's really trying to find these strengths that the person has that will allow them to engage in whatever tasks they're trying to engage in.
Speaker 2:So when we're speaking about, for example, like parents, right is trying to find these strengths. So, for example, I had a conversation with a parent, like a couple weeks ago, and it was just very difficult for them to engage in this intervention that I was asking them to engage in. And I said can you think back at a certain time or a certain point of your life where you had a similar challenge and you were able to find techniques yourself to kind of conquer it? And then the parent told me yeah, I was able to do this and I did that, and I'm like, okay, so that's great, right, that tells me that you have that courage, that you have that persistence. So how can we use that to intervene effectively in your son's behaviors? So it's kind of like looking for those strengths, bringing it out, offering it to them, and then how can we use that to get you to where you want to go? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean again, I think it's an EO right, creating a want for them to move in a direction. I know that it also has like different processes that are within it, like engaging people. Again, we should be, as a behavior analyst, working with anybody. We should be engaging our stakeholders, we're engaging the learner, we should be engaging the parents, and then, you know, after we have them engaged, we need to, you know, pick a focus. What are we going to work on? I think this is, you know, all this stuff is brought out through these, you know, open-ended questions to find. You know, it's like this discovery. And then, of course, you know, as you were mentioning, like there's the evoking, uh, making sure that, um, you know that they want to change. Right, they have to have the reasons to change, not us, because it's still coming back to changing their behavior, because if they want to produce a different result, it requires behavior change.
Speaker 2:And I think probably that that's the most difficult part, I think, for us behavior analysts to do to evoke that from them to take a step back and instead of saying, hey, don't provide attention to this behavior because this will happen, instead of that we can ask what do you think would happen if you continue to provide attention to this behavior? Right, that's a different approach. Now we're having the parents problem solve themselves and come up with those solutions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as opposed to saying, like man, if you keep paying attention to it, you're going to get more of it and it's going to make your life harder. They've got to come up with those solutions, Absolutely. So it is a fine line and it, you know, because it's supposed to be. You know, no, we're supposed to, um, listen empathetically and we have to again resist that urge to tell them the right thing to do, which is very, very, very challenging when you know it's like it is the key to it. The other thing is that which can make it a challenge. This is where the challenge with this whole approach comes into. But it's just a challenge that we need to overcome and I think it's a challenge that's set up because of our systems.
Speaker 1:A lot of times there's a behavior challenge going on and you know, like, let's say, schools, it's an easy one for everybody to understand and you get sent into the classroom to work with a teacher. Um, they're there for a couple hours or day and they're like they're required to make change quick. I'm like this is not the way it works, you know. I mean, like you have to in um, in organizational management, we look at relationships as an accomplishment, right, it's a data point to say like, hey, if we don't have a good relationship, if people don't trust us, you know, if they don't see how our help can support them for meeting their needs and producing their valued outcomes, then you know again, we're coercing people, which is exactly the opposite of what we want to do.
Speaker 1:Right, but this is a process and it can be do. Right, but this is a process and it could be quick, right, Depending on what the person's history is and what they think of you, and et cetera, et cetera. Or it could be lengthy, like getting people to move. What's been your experience with that in terms of how quickly you've been able to do things, or maybe some timelines where it was challenging?
Speaker 2:but over time you made it. So I think when I've been invited to speak in the conferences, you know, I usually get that same question from the audience, like, oh, this sounds great, we love it. How long does it take, right. And I'm like, how long does an extinction burst take? Like who knows Right, like we don't know.
Speaker 1:Behavior change takes time. In general, it takes time.
Speaker 2:And you know, what I find interesting is that when we are teaching, when we're working one-on-one with our kiddos right, and we are teaching them, for example, verbal behavior, where we're trying to accomplish getting them to say something ball, for example we don't rush that process right. We shape it, we reinforce smaller steps, we're patient, we're reduced. But then when it, when we use it with adults, when we use it with the teachers that we're working with, or when we use it with our staff, or even with the parents doing parent coaching session, we want it to be quick, we want the report to be like quick and we want them to change really quick. But that's not the way that it works. It's a process and I think that we have to change our mindset, just as you mentioned.
Speaker 1:Well, that's huge. I mean, this has been kind of like the torch that I've held for a long time through organizational paper management. It's like we forget about the science when we start working with the adults. And I know we're forgetting about it because we blame, we say they're not doing this or they're lazy, et cetera, et cetera. We don't think about, you know, altering the environment, which we are a very important part of that environment. So I agree with that. So much, man, we have to like that. You know that, first of all, if we're going to get any sustainable change with our learners, almost always the adults in the local environment are going to have changed their behavior period Right. So in a sense they're learners as well and we have to involve them because it's like it's, you know it's changing behavior, if you know, unless you're there working constantly with a kid and you can do it, so it just becomes a habit. That's very rare, you know people are gonna have to do engage in different behaviors in order to maintain that behavior.
Speaker 2:Right and we don't change. We don't change behaviors per se right. What is it that we change?
Speaker 1:We change the environment Well, and we change habits over time.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and the parents are part of that environment. So that's really what we're doing essentially, and then, when we create these empathetic environments with parents, they're more likely to buy in, they're more likely to trust. And I think another thing that can also be a challenge, but it's something that we have to overcome is that when we go into a session with a parent, we continue to see our client as the client and not the parent as a client. We have to learn how to shift our mindset, and when you are having a conversation with a parent, the parent or the teacher becomes your client. Once you make that switch, it is way easier to apply all these techniques.
Speaker 1:It is huge. I mean, when they well, I think part of it is that also the, the organizational leaders need to recognize this and they need to see that change talk as a data point. They need to see the relationship as a data point. I mean, how can we measure that relationship? Well, maybe it's. They asked us a question, they reached out to us, you know. Ask us when we're going to be coming, you know.
Speaker 1:But you know again that change talk becomes something to say. You know what we are moving in the right direction, because all they're going to look at is the bottom line result. And is that child? You know, because, from an organizational behavior management perspective, learner behavior is a result, yeah, as a result of, you know, other, the environment, the adults in that environment, and changing their behavior. So when we everybody's just looking at that result and they're like, well, you're not doing your job, well, hold on, there are a chain of things that need to occur before it can happen. We can probably produce a short-term result, but it's going to be using coercion right, forcing somebody to do something, like suggesting it strongly you need to do this and now it doesn't maintain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it won't maintain. Now, should we ever do that? Yeah, I think that there are times where we just have to get people do something, like there's a crisis, there's something going on that the learner is going to be hurt, right, and there's been a lot of debate about, like assent and consent. I think people are finally coming back around and say, listen, I think assent is great. It aligns perfectly with my values in terms of involving our stakeholders. But there are times when you just need people to do something because it's dangerous for them. Right, it can be harmful if they don't change, with the goal being like, if you do use that man, you better get them in touch with some sort of positive reinforcement very quickly for doing it, otherwise they're not going to want you around, nothing's going to sustain, et cetera, et cetera. You know.
Speaker 2:Right and and I think it lies in the how um, so we have to get it done, but how we do it can really change everything, right? So it's again it comes out. It has to do with the way that we communicate these things to the parents. It's not like we're never going to communicate with them about something that has to be done or something that we really think that is urgent. But again, it's in the how right. And another question that I often get is well, what happens if the parent just doesn't want to, you know, to do the intervention? We've tried this. We tried, you know, reflective listening. We try summarizations, we tried all of these great techniques and they still don't want to. And I always tell them well, if they don't want to, then they don't want to. That, that's it. End of end of story. We don't have to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like to think, you know, I, I, I agree with that. But I like also like to say that for these, I have these four hats of leadership. I'd mentioned leading I've leading, training, coaching, managing. They all serve a different function. Right, it's really about the four term contingency. It means that we have to do something more or less differently, because we always think through the three term but we have to think about MOs and what do we need to do to create a want for that parent? Whatever we're doing right now is not working. Can it be done? Yes, I mean, I'm certain that it can. There's research on how to do it. So it's kind of like people saying that, um, well, I'm reinforcing them, but the but it's not working. Well, it's, you know. It means that you're just not a reinforcer. You know it can't not work if it is. And it means that if we are not engaging our stakeholders in change, it means we need to do something more or lesser differently, though our approaches, our behaviors are not producing that desired results.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and I think another thing that I also like to speak about, like during my book and the trainings, is on the trans-theoretical model. So this is something that was borrowed into motivational interviewing because it works really well together. But this talks about the different phases of change. So in the pre contemplation, for example, is where you're like what you know, I really don't have a drinking problem or problem at all or whatever it is. Or my child has been, you know, I don't know like thrown out of like seven schools, but he's a boy, he'll grow out of it, kind of thing. So that mentality is the pre-contemplation, like what problem? A parent or a person who is in this phase of change? You're not going to like start giving them interventions because they haven't even acknowledged that there is a problem. So I think that looking at all these phases of change pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, you know, and the rest of them is so important. We have to identify where this client or this parent lies in order to then come up with interventions that will suit their needs.
Speaker 1:For behavior analysts. There's action and maintenance right the last two parts of those and it's very behavior analytically oriented. You know there's also research called stages of concern that align with this. I use it with the educators a lot and saying, like man, like they're not, you want them to change, produce this outcome right now. They don't care about innovating learning for the students right now if they're barely surviving and they can't keep their head about. So you got to start with what their reinforcers are and what their values are.
Speaker 1:I like to use the act matrix in in in collaboration with this. I think it's such a great way because you can just use all the principles of motivational interviewing and make it kind of concrete and kind of start sorting stuff out, finding out what's important to them and what's showing up for them and when they engage in this behavior. You know, does that align with their values? What else is it? It's like a perfect, like compliment to motivational interviewing, to, to to do it Um. I mean, we, we actually use it, um, anika, and I use it when we go out to train um with, you know, school leaders. We have massive amount of school leaders and people buy in drastically when with that visual and, of course course, using the principles of uh, motivation interviewing.
Speaker 1:You can still do it with a group. Uh, you know it becomes, you know, hard to like really measure, like everybody's engaging in change talk, but you know you're, you're doing active student responding and they're, you know they're talking out, they're porting out and you can begin to see the shift and, uh, you know how they're approaching things. So I think it's, I would love to see some you know research on it as a group. Have you ever seen any research linked to like group MI?
Speaker 2:stuff. I haven't no, not as a group, I haven't seen it. That would be interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it'd be fun, but there are a lot of things that the MI can be embedded into. Do you find yourself using this in your everyday life with your own kids and your own family? Because it's gotta be difficult, because there's all the emotion caught up into it, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I would. This is a disclaimer don't use it with your significant other, okay, cause it will definitely backfire. I have a skid that I do with my husband, but it's like a pseudo skid. Obviously, he's not as that compliant, but yeah, I mean, you know, I don't think you should use anything on your significant other because it's always going to backfire.
Speaker 2:But with my kids, however, I have used more of the open ended questions, right? So, as a mom and as a behavior analyst, you know, I mean, I think that sometimes I'm very, like, solution focused. So, let's say, my child tells me, oh, someone was bullying me, or this is going on, and I quickly jump to it Well, this is what you should do, and this is instead of asking well, what do you think would have been something that you could have told this person when they told you that? Right? So here I'm allowing him to problem solve. I'm allowing him to problem solve, I'm allowing him to come up with his own solutions that may be better than the solutions I'm going to give him, and he's more likely to run with those solutions because it's his solutions. So I have used some of these techniques with my kids, for sure.
Speaker 1:It is so powerful. I mean, in leadership, I have a saying that if they author it, they'll own it right. So you don't want to do things to people, you want to do things with them and so they need to see what's in it for them and they need to have input to that. I mean, it's so simple but it's so powerful. But I think the big challenge for people with this approach again, you know, like wanting to push your own agenda, uh, you know, being patient, um, I mean, we really need to be taking a look at like their, their feedback, their responses, are feedback for us.
Speaker 1:It's data. Everything they're doing is data and we're should be constantly adjusting our approach, like what you said earlier, with the people saying, well, it's not working. Well, that's data. For you, what you're doing is not working. It means you need to do something more or less or differently, and it means, typically, that they need to circle back to the open-ended questions they might've tried to push too fast. Right, with, you know, with the planning phase. Right, because we still need to make sure that we are actually evoking some sort of change. And if we don't get, if we don't evoke, you know, reasons for change, then going into the planning phase is not going to be good, because it means that they are reinforcing them, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and you know, I think also like when we work with parents in pushing the agenda, because another question that I've gotten also is well, this sounds great, but aren't we just manipulating people to do what we want? And I'm like, yeah, I mean, it sounds like it right. I think in any science or in anything you do, you have that thing where you can actually coerce someone. But what prevents us from doing that in ABA, for example, it's our ethics. So in motivational interviewing we have something called the spirit of motivational interviewing. So our goals have to be aligned with the parent's goals as well, because if not, we're pushing our agenda. We have to respect their autonomy. We have to also speak about their challenges and speak about their goals and try to align with them, so we're not just doing what we think is important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's supposed to be collaborative, it's supposed to have the intent to empower people, right, because we want autonomy. So like, yeah, I don't. I mean, and I think that you know, I think that there's no reason that it shouldn't be transparent, like, hey, here's what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna find out what's important to you. Some questions, so you know, because a lot of people don't know their own values, right, they don't understand, maybe, the ramifications or the ripple effects of their behavior across the people they love, across their own life. So it's kind of like, I think it's kind of like making it salient to them, it's like bringing all the stuff to the surface so they essentially have all the data to work with to make a more of an informed decision. Is the way that I think about it, you know. Otherwise, you know, I I think we could say anything is manipulative, and I don't think it's manipulative, you know, especially if they understand, like, here's, what I'm going to do is why I mean, you're driving the ship and I'm going to be asking you questions that you know that, that get you to think about all these outcomes and stuff like that. So we can, if you're not getting changed with them again.
Speaker 1:I think it means that we still need to do something more to us or differently. I want to say that we can, but there are always going to be people who have a long history. They don't like the way that I look, you know. They don't like my tone of voice or something like that. Maybe they heard something about me that they don't feel so great, right? So they're just resistant or they work for another behavior and it's got nothing to do with me. So it's like we got to maybe tap out and maybe have somebody else step in. But that's the same thing with any learners, Right? We all have people like it's challenging, right?
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, polly, I can tell you don't like to, you know, to give up. You're like, no, there's still something we have to do. And I like that Right, and I'm also like that. I think it gets to a point where we have to learn to tap out. We just have to learn, like you know, there's that, that's it. We've already exhausted everything because guess what? The other families that we work with need us and we're going to burn out, and that's a real thing. That's happening in our fields. A lot of behavior analysts are going into gardening or like random things because they're just so burnt out. So there has to be a point where we're just like okay, you know, we respect that you're not ready. It's not that they don't want to, it's that they're just not ready right now. So you can contact me when you are ready and I'll be here for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, holler at me, dog. I mean I just think that it's. You know, I think if you're getting I always, as a leader in different organizations, right, I never wanted, I always wanted to bring out the best in people and so, like I didn't want somebody to quit or you know, I didn't want, I wanted them to feel good and help them produce results. But I recognize you can't get everybody right, but I always worry that people are going to fall back on that as an excuse, right? So I have it in my mind.
Speaker 1:It's like the 80, 20 rule, like I believe, like you're being successful, you should be getting at least. If you're getting 80% on the people on board and it's working, then you're, you're doing the right thing, right. If you're getting less than that, then you might need to shape your stuff up. If you're getting nine out of 10, I just don't think we're going to get 10 out of 10 people. You know, just because, like you said, like there could be different things going at a time, maybe later on, it could just be a number of variables that we can't control.
Speaker 1:But I think you know, shoot for that rule of thumb. You know the 80-20 rule and you know, I think you'll be okay. Yeah, so where do you see MI in the future in terms of, you know, in our field, like, what would you like to see you know, how would you like to see the field embrace it? What would make it better for the field or you know, to really disseminate this approach, because not many people are aware of it and when they hear about it it just makes sense to them. They're like oh, this makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:So, you know, what's interesting is that I started doing this, I started doing the courses and obviously when we see something new in our fields, we're like, oh, something different than what we've learned so far. So of course we're attractive to it. And then a lot of people you know have have taken my courses and have, you know, read my book and everything. But I think that one of the most important things in motivational interviewing is practicing it Like it's not just one training, it's not just one podcast, like you really have. It's um, it's sort of like a way of life. I know it sounds very dramatic, but it is the way that it is. You have to be very conscious of, of how you're coming across and when you are communicating with others. So I would love to see it integrated into university programs in ABA. I really think that it will do wonders to the graduate students and just embedded in more conferences and more people just speaking about MI and and communicating more effectively.
Speaker 1:I agree, I mean, I mean, look, it's all part of like finding out what people's reinforcers are again finding out what's blocking their access to them, you know, letting them see that stuff. I mean I mean, look, it's all part of like finding out what people's reinforcers are again finding out what's blocking their access to them, you know, letting them see that stuff, I think. But it really does require, you know, it requires a lot of practice. I mean just even the part with, like you know, you know, resisting the urge to, like you know, change and being nonjudgmental with stuff or resisting the urge to change them. And it has all these, you know these, these principles that you got to follow.
Speaker 1:You know it's got the four, the four processes. You know the engaging and and and focusing and planning and or the evoking and planning and stuff like that, and of course there's the oars. But then there's stuff that you just brought up, like you know, the changes, the stages of change. You know there's a lot of moving parts that you have to be aware of to become better at. Now I know that you wrote a book on it that pairs behavior analysis with MI, which I think that was the first book to do that. Is that correct? Am I correct in saying that?
Speaker 2:Yes, I guess. So If someone has data that is contrary to that, let me know. I mean, I don't want to be like, hey, I was the first one, but, um, yes, and in writing that book, you know. And again, when I started I'm very like, straightforward, I'm very like, you know, um, honest with with these things. When I started embedding motivational interviewing into our fields, I was a little scared because I know how our field is Right and it's kind of like we're bringing something that's that's psychological in nature, that well, how do you objectively define it? So I was a little scared. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to put this out there. They're going to say I'm a bad behavior analyst, but it was the contrary, right. And I think that in the book I kind of explain or I conceptualize some of these motivational interviewing terms into ABA terminology, just so people can make that connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just kind of like what I said finding out what people's reinforcers are. You know, absolutely. I mean, you're gauging, and when you're asking those questions, essentially it should be, you know, mos. You know we're creating a want for change, you know, and I want you, you know, to do more of this and do less of that, but based on what their reinforcers are, and that should be guiding our questions to begin with. Yeah, you know, I know that our field's been like that for a while. I've had that issue with you know some things as well, but at some point, like if it's working, it's working. I mean, it's also coming down to your behavior, right? So it's looking at our behavior and looking at the result, and if it's producing that result, all right, we can put a lens on what we're doing. You know, right.
Speaker 2:And, at the end of the day, I think that if you are, like, truly a behavior analyst and you see the world through those behavior analysis like, you know that behavior analysis like lens, you know that things are conceptualized in whatever way people want to conceptualize them, but at the end it's behavior right. Like, at the end we can define it with with ABA terminology because we really believe that it's all based on these terms right. So I think it's just finding how to do that, like even in my psychology world, because, since I am a clinical psychologist and I'm also BCBA, in my psychology world, when I work with with clients that have, you know, depression, that have different personality disorders, I use a lot of ABA techniques. They're just called differently.
Speaker 1:I agree. I mean, when we're doing things like helping people, like you know, look at functional relationships of looking at their own behavior and the impact on the environment, that's parts it's still client centered, youcentered. We're still looking for a behavioral change because if we still got to come up with a plan, if we're going to do it, we're engaging in MOs. I mean it's still ethical and respectful treatment of people. I think it aligns very well with what we have going on in the field and even our thoughts and our feelings. We can treat those like they're covert behaviors. And so, you know, we're saying like, hey, make sure you're resisting the urge to write the reflex. Well, we can, you know, be observers of that and we value MI, we value that we want to engage people in their own change. Then we can become better observers of our behavior. Hey, when I think and feel this way, engage in this behavior, that's when I try to. You know, I try to make the change, I try to force it and realize that you know what this is not okay. You know this is misaligned, my values. I need to engage in replacement behavior that's going back to listening empathetically, that's asking open-ended questions, that's helping them explore their own behaviors and, you know, maybe making the link between their behaviors and their impact on the environment. So I think it gets very behavioral in nature. If something's working, we can frame it behaviorally. Just because it hasn't been, maybe done at different levels, doesn't mean it can't be, and I just love this concept.
Speaker 1:So what's coming up for you? I know that you have Crystal Minds, right, so you're the founder of Crystal Minds. Yes, it's in Miami, and you guys, you have a clinic or are you in home? Is it both?
Speaker 2:So we do both. We have a clinic, we have two clinics, one in Broward, one in Dade, and, and you know we've had it open for about 14 and a half years already. And congrats on that.
Speaker 1:That's a rarity to have a business that long.
Speaker 2:I remember you sent me that. I was like wow, Okay, this, you know this kind of reinforces my efforts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a. That's a very challenging thing, and do you do like any private consulting? You do any training?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I have courses, I have webinars that I provide. I'm also going to be a Faba. I'm going to be speaking about motivational interviewing in Spanish, so that's something that I've wanted to also do, I think, for the Spanish speakers. You know, we don't have a lot of, like you know, these webinars and these interesting things, so I definitely want to do something more in Spanish and, yeah, that's basically what I'm doing. I also do coaching, so I do consultation for private practices. So private practices that have a couple of behavior analysts and they want to get some, you know, consultation, some trainings and things like that. I also do that.
Speaker 1:Oh, very cool, that's awesome. So that'll be, and we'll make sure we drop your contact information in the link. So I'm excited about all this stuff. You know we have our course coming out. I think it's, you know, developing coursework, especially around something like this. We're developing coursework, especially around something like this. We're calling it a primer to motivational interviewing. I call it a primer because it can just go so deep, but I feel like it's. You know. We have a bunch of tools that come with it to help people, like downloadables, you know, like task aids, essentially to help.
Speaker 1:I would just encourage everybody, like you know, don't wait for the course. Go out right now and take a look at some of Monica's stuff, you know. Pick up some of my books and when the course comes out, make sure you take a look at that. You have to build fluency. This stuff requires repetition, but it is powerful. For my own consulting business, using these approaches has just opened up the world by asking questions. Even when we meet with our clients or potential clients, it is like by the time they're like, yeah, let's go, we need to make the change, because people just don't know what they don't know. So it's a nice approach to getting them to reflect on. You know the change that needs to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I know that you're a boxer right, and I believe that it was Mike Tyson that said you know, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face, right that's right.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know a lot of the times we take these webinars and then we go and we're like, yes, we're going to do it. And then we are there with the parents and we're like, oh crap, what do we say now? What's the reflection? And we don't know what's going to happen. Right, because everyone is different. That's why these ongoing consultations, that's why these ongoing coachings are so important, in order to build that fluency, because you don't know what's going to happen on the other side of that door once you meet that person. And then you know it's so important to reflect back and speak with someone that knows about motivational interviewing that can coach you even further into that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, man. We got to build fluency with this stuff and so, yeah, you're right, don't give up on it just because you went dude. It really takes. It takes practice. I'm sure you're still learning, you know, I know I'm definitely still learning. You know, creating these like key habits, always reflecting on what I'm doing. And am I pushing people again resisting, I'm resisting my urge to always help people, you know, creating an urge for them to want to help themselves and reflect on the change that they have to make. So well, monica, it's been a blast having you on here. I know that we will be seeing each other at Faba, hopefully, and I'm sure we'll talk, you know, before that. And you know, just, I know I'm going to drop your information here, but, like, is there an email? Best approach to reach out to you? Just so you know, maybe some people don't want to have to go check on the in the notes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm really active on social media so you can look for the MI doctor or doctor like DR Monica Gilbert and you can contact me there and ask me for you know, my website or any other things that you, any questions you have or just share any interests you have. I always love connecting with other behavior analysts. And and again, thank you, polly, for having me here. Hopefully we can do something together in the future. I'm really excited about that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, All right, yeah, let us know. If you guys want Monica and I to work together on something, let us know, man, we'll probably crush it.
Speaker 2:We'll make it fun, We'll make it entertaining. I think we we bring like different perspectives.
Speaker 1:So yeah, definitely do that. All right, cool, all right, monica, good to see you.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
