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Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist
In the Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist Show, Dr. Paul “Paulie” Gavoni looks at common issues or phenomena in our personal and professional lives, gives you his thoughts, sometimes rants about it, and provides you with practical solutions rooted in the science of human behavior.
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Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist
Harnessing Passion and Integrity for Leadership and Growth with Troy Burg
Ever wondered how a background in nutrition can lead to a flourishing career in Applied Behavior Analysis and Organizational Behavior Management? Behavior analyst Troy Burg shares his unique journey from direct support work to ABA expertise in this enlightening episode. Troy reveals how his early experiences fueled a passion for behavior analysis, merging interests in helping others and business. We discuss the emerging potential for ABA to become a mainstream career path, much like medicine or law, and how these principles extend beyond traditional business settings, influencing education and more.
Troy shares insights on integrity and shared values, emphasizing passion-driven work as a catalyst for meaningful change. Tune in to hear Troy's compelling story and discover how you can integrate these principles into your own life and work.
Troy has a Master of Science in Applied Behavior Analysis. Over the past couple of years, he has combined his education in the science of ABA with his marketing skills to create his online network. He specializes in disseminating information related to both ABA and OBM. Specifically, he enjoys showing people how behavioral science plays into marketing. He also likes designing experimental social media designs to demonstrate how behavioral science benefits the average marketer.
Troy enjoys golfing and watching sports with his friends in his free time. His favorite sports include football, basketball, baseball, hockey, and golf.
You can learn more about Troy at the following links:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@behavioralstories
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/behavioralstories/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/troy-burg-2999831ba/
Motivational Interviewing: Getting Educator Buy-In is a comprehensive online course designed to equip behavior interventionists is a goal-oriented, person-centered approach that encourages individuals to explore and resolve ambivalence toward behavioral interventions and change.
The Behavioral Toolbox equips those charged with supporting behavior change in schools with practical applications of the science of human behavior for making a positive difference in the workplace. In this case, the classroom and school!
Be sure to subscribe to Dr. Paulie's Heart & Science YouTube channel for a variety of content related to behavior science and bringing out the best in yourself and others.
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior Scientist show hosted by Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestselling author Dr Pauly.
Speaker 2:Okay, welcome back to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior Scientist podcast. I'm your host, dr Pauly, and I'm here with Troy Berg, and Troy is a behavior analyst and I met him on Instagram. I saw him pumping out content and he does a lot of content related to ABA and OBM. I thought, oh, this is pretty cool man, let me check out some of his content. And he's a disseminator of the science and, man, he did me a real solid. He read my book, he made a post on it and I thought, man, this is pretty frigging cool man.
Speaker 2:Well, it turns out that, you know, again, we have some things that we are like-minded on, especially organizational behavior management, and we said, well, let's get on here and shoot the shit. Talk about performance based pay versus fixed pay, and you know, just kind of go from there, man, see where it goes. As I said even before you got on here, troy, this is very organic. I don't want anybody to think this is ever scripted, so I'll be learning new things from you, just as our listeners are. So welcome to the program.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. Yeah, brother. So to start with, man, can you talk a little bit about what got you into the field and why? Because I mean you're relatively new in terms of getting your degree in it. That does not mean you have not be studying the science for a long time have been learned, I mean. The fact is you actually don't have to, you know, have a, have any degree to understand the principles and apply the principles of science. Of course we want people to have degrees so we know that they're well trained. But when I, when I've read some of your content, I'm like man, this guy is, this guy knows a lot about the field, knows a lot about the science. But when I come on here and see that you're relatively new in terms of getting your degree, I'm like this is unusual. It means you probably even poured yourself into it, you know, since you've gotten your degree or you've been exposed to it a long time ago you know, since you've gotten your degree or you've been exposed to it a long time ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so during my bachelor's I was doing nutrition, so that's unrelated to behavior analysis at all. However, when I started working as a therapist, right when I graduated, that's how I got into the field. So then I was told you know, you can get a master's and fun fact is, I didn't get into Pepperdine when I was trying to do it for my bachelor. So when I saw the opportunity to get in for my master's in applied behavior analysis and I was in that field, I was like, hmm, this is redemption time. So I applied, got in, I got my degree from there. So that's kind of how I fell into the field. However, the reason I like it so much is that I would say this is the first time out of all the fields I've ever studied, or in school at all, where it kind of clicked a little bit Wait, wait, wait, hold on.
Speaker 2:You said this how you got in the field, but what exposed you? Where did you even hear about behavior analysis? Because we all like stumble across it. You know, before you even applied, something must have happened where you're like oh, this is, there's a science behind this.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So during my bachelor's I also worked as a direct support professional. So I worked in home with individuals with intellectual disabilities and that's kind of where I got introduced to that. It wasn't ABA, don't get me wrong, it was not ABA, it was more caregiving. However, we did have behavioral goals. There was some behavior analysts sometimes, but I wasn't an RBT, I was more of a caregiver. I would cook, I would help individuals cook, et cetera. But when I graduated I tried to stay on that same line and that's when an ABA therapist position had opened up and I was like, Hmm, let me see what this is about. So that's kind of how I fell into it and then I did my grad program from there.
Speaker 2:Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a dream that one day people, when they're young kids, are going to be like you know I want to be a doctor, a lawyer, a fireman, teacher, a behavior analyst. You know. I think that the more folks like us are disseminating the science and putting it out there in the world, folks will maybe deliberately choose a career path in it, because right now it's like guys like you and I and you know that's generalized with anybody, not just guys, you know but we stumble across it right, instead of having it. And because we want to help people, we're all in the usually we're in the helping field.
Speaker 1:I was a social worker, so yeah. So I actually worked as a nursing assistant to my bachelor's before that job, so I've always been in line with trying to help others. However, the reason I say I like organizational behavior management is because I do like business a lot, so that brings behavior analysis into business a little bit. Fun fact, my dad had an MBA, so he was a big business minded guy. So that's kind of why I'm straying towards that aspect of behavior analysis.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, got that business mindset man and I mean and also for anybody in here, of course OBM should be applying business. But we can. You know we can really apply OBM when we're working with groups, people, anywhere. I always talk about how we can apply it in schools and even the classrooms. How much. The classroom is just very it's an organization. The teacher is very much like a CEO and you got these little students running around. They're like employees trying to produce the most important business result we have in the world. Man, that is like learning student achievement, so I love being able to use anybody. It's shocking, by the way, that more of our when I say more like all of our behavior analytical organizations aren't applying organizational behavior management. A lot of people don't know what it is, or they don't understand it, or they think it's outside of their scope, and the fact is, all the principles are the same.
Speaker 1:Right All right?
Speaker 2:Well, so you want to talk specifically about this performance-based versus fixed pay, so unpack that a little bit. First of all, talk about, before we get into that, why we need to have some sort of pay in the first place, right? What the problem is with fixed pay and how performance-based pay can alleviate that.
Speaker 1:So the reason I kind of thought about this was due to the schedules of reinforcement. Right, so you got the fixed interval schedule and the fixed ratio schedule. So when kind of applying that to the workplace and I think about it, the fixed interval would be like your hourly pay right, you work one hour, you get your pay for that hour, right, and then there's a bi-weekly paycheck. That's also a fixed interval. You get your paycheck every other week.
Speaker 1:However, if you think about it, you're paying an employee based off their time, right there. Right, so you're not giving them money for their performance. So that's why I've always been kind of interested in that, because if you add, like, a ratio requirement, such as you know, I guess billable hours could be a ratio right, you bill 30 hours, you get a bonus for a VCBA that is actually tied to an employee's performance. You know, it's not just paying someone for their time. And it's a topic that really fascinates me, because almost every company is going to pay you by your time and if you're not supervised, you're just going to give them your time most of the time, right, like some people just don't perform when the reinforcer is not tied to performance, right, cause you're not increasing performance based behaviors.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. People are coming in and they're clocking in and they're doing their time, but what we need to be paying them for is for their valuable accomplishments. When you have some sort of fixed interval, I mean you can squash motivation but factors it reduces the accountability. Now we want accountability, so it's positive accountability. Where people want to be accountable, it feels good because you know you're producing these accomplishments and it leads directly to some sort of performance pay. And also, by nature, when you have performance pay, there's got to be some sort of feedback loop, so it's letting you know how well you're doing.
Speaker 2:And a lot of organizations out there people have no idea. They're getting to the end of the week, the end of the month, but it could be even the end of the day. Did I do my job? And you know, did I produce what I'm supposed to do? And a lot of people have no idea. So they end up stagnating. You know which is a huge issue. And also I think with that there's no alignment with organizational goals. You know, if you don't know what you're supposed to do and what you're supposed to produce as a result of that and I don't mean general, I mean very specific you need to have some sort of feedback loop to do that. You know, even if there's not pay involved in it. I think that if you have values in an organization, just seeing the impact that you're having can serve as that naturally occurring reinforcer that's going to sustain you. Now, of course, we tie in the pay. You've got multiple levels of reinforcers, right.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Employees do need to feel valued, and I think that's the problem sometimes with the fixed interval. If they don't feel valued, that's when they're just going to start giving you their time, because they know they only have to give you their time in order to get the pay. And I know you asked me why is this topic important? Well, because we don't show up to work unless we get paid.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, as much as I have volunteered in the past, I can't do that for a living. I need money. I got to pay the bills, we got to do this, we got to do that. So people need money. So it's a very important thing that a business needs to think about. Something that's very common in the United States is that annual $1 raise. I don't think that's really going to cut it anymore with this. With the younger generation coming up, you know, one dollar raise every year just isn't going to sustain them for a long period of time, right? You're not going to be able to maintain their behavior through time if you're just giving them a one dollar raise every year.
Speaker 2:Uh there's no doubt about it, man. I mean, we all need pay. There's there again. There's multiple reinforcers acting on our behavior. You know, know we want to get things, we want to get away from the tax people. You know, we don't want to lose our house, you know. But also, when we're working, we we want to, we want to accomplish things. I think that's.
Speaker 2:I don't know what you found, brother, you know, but I found that in organizations I hear people what are we going to do to positively reinforce? You know, because we're talking about OBM and everybody's like they're going back to what they're doing with the learners right in the clinics and they're thinking about tokens and they're thinking about Skittles and they're thinking about all this stuff, which is great, I'm glad that they're thinking about this, but people aren't thinking about naturally occurring reinforcers enough, and that's what's going to maintain behavior and, of course, we want to shift them, so it's more positive reinforcement for them. And so I think the best thing people can do leaders, managers, supervisors, whatever your noun is, if you're responsible for the performance of people is you need to help them feel valued and you need to help them to observe that they're producing valued outcomes, which also means hiring people that share the same values and, of course, you know the pay that comes out of it again. That just makes you feel more valued as well. Right, because I'm seeing this. I feel good.
Speaker 2:Look, the learner's getting better, for example. It could be in any organization, but most people again are in our field because they want to help people. So if you see the learners getting better as a result of behavior, that feels wonderful and it drives your behavior in the moment. And you also know, like man, you know what I'm getting paid more because I'm having more success. But it can be demoralizing, as you know, to know that you're busting your ass making a difference. You look over there and you know the Joe next to you is making the same amount and they're not.
Speaker 1:I like how you said the values part, because values alignment is huge. Right, you can pay someone all the money in the world, but if they're not valuing what they're doing, they're probably not going to still like what they're doing, if that makes sense. Here in the United States, we have been programmed to value ourselves based on how much we make. Unfortunately, that's how it works, but, like you said, values alignment is crucial.
Speaker 1:Not that many people who make all the money in the world, who are working a job they don't like, are that happy. The values alignment is still so crucial because, like you said, that's where the maintenance of behavior is exhibited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you've heard of the term emotional intelligence, I'm assuming.
Speaker 1:I have yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's got a lot of great stuff on it. There's some kind of soft research behind it. But I'm writing a book with Adam Ventura called Behavioral Intelligence. I'm saying it's the evolution of emotional intelligence and in it I have something called. We have something called the Behavioral Alignment Compass and it's kind of like it's a play off of the ACT Matrix and I love the act matrix, I share it everywhere. I wrote an article with Dr Kevin Polk sweet guy, man, just a great guy Love his work about the he. He, you know he developed the act matrix with some other folks, I think. And the thing is that I decided to do something with the behavioral alignment compass.
Speaker 2:To your point right, having values in alignment, because I'm actually not an RFT guy, I'm not an ACT guy, I don't know that much about it and I see the matrix just as a way to understand our values and I say values are a preferred way of being and doing. You know, so we could Scott it's a preference assessment and if we do as a group, we could say it's shared values, right, and the bottom in the ACT matrix, the bottom left-hand corner, is going to be your private events or your covert behaviors and we all can have shared thoughts and feelings that show up, you know, and when we feel this way, we behave a certain way. So it's an antecedent to these behaviors that we engage in to allow us to escape behaviors that we don't feel very good about, right. So, if you know, that's fine when they're in alignment with their values. But when they're in alignment with their values, but when they're in misalignment, it's not fine. You know, we're winning the battle but we're losing the war, but we get stuck in this loop of negative reinforcement.
Speaker 2:As you and I both know, people tend to engage in behaviors that are going to produce immediate and certain outcomes for themselves, right, and that's the reinforcer. And so, with the behavioral compass, I say, like, I like the idea of like thinking, of a compass, like where's your North star, that's your values, right. And so we need to, you know, be aware and use those thoughts and feelings, be aware that when you think and feel this way, behave that way, that's a misaligned with our shared values, which in organization, what are our shared values in here? And we need to initiate a replacement behavior. And so, you know, very similar to to act matrix, but I just use all behavioral language with it. Uh, but to both of our points.
Speaker 2:We need to bring people in who do have shared values, but we need to make sure that the company is built from the ground up on the value. The systems are designed based on those values, because the values come back to behaviors. So here are values, and they need to be more than just the writing on the wall. Right right, they can't just be. You know, we value respect and collaboration, all these things. And then you see the leader yelling at the manager, the manager yelling at the supervisor, supervisor yelling at the direct. You know that's not manifesting it that way.
Speaker 2:And if you value something, you need to measure it right. You know, without if you're not measuring it, then you're not really valuing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like how you brought up like building the business from the ground up. It's almost like generality and maintenance of your business right, programming your business for generality and maintenance, because that's the only way to create a sustainable organization. I have been fortunate enough to not run into many leaders in my life who have scolded me for, I guess, undesired behaviors, I guess, or things I didn't do right in the workplace. I feel like I've always had pretty supportive leadership, but I've read some of your articles or blogs that you post to LinkedIn and you always have these stories of how, like a leader will think they're doing a great job, but then you go interview the employees, they're like oh, he's coercive, he controls us with punishing, contingencies and all this and it's just like wow.
Speaker 1:It's almost like a lack of perspective taking sometimes in a leader where they don't realize the perspective of their employees. So they use coercion and stuff because they're really not putting themselves in their employees' shoes. And I think that's really important for a leader.
Speaker 2:I'm glad that you're saying that, man, but the perspective taking, because that's exactly when my colleague and I, Anika, go. We train a lot of leaders, right, and we say we start introducing the ACT matrix, saying, well, what do you think teachers value? What do you think shows up for them when they feel that way? What do they do and what should they do? So we go around that matrix and we say, okay, in the top right-hand corner, these are the pinpointed behaviors that they need to engage in, that are going to help them get in touch with values. Now let's zoom out and do it again with you. What are you going to do to increase the likelihood that they are going to engage in those behaviors? Which is a group that they don't think about this stuff? So, when you get them to go around and go through their whole thing, what shows up for you, what barriers you engage in? What should you do? A lot of times they're missing this right. But coming back to your point about awareness, I think a lot are just unaware, right, and I think they're unaware and they're misinformed about how to get improved behavior. I don't think most of them are bad people.
Speaker 2:I think in one of my articles, one of my articles, I have a series of this. I call them valued learners. Right, I have ask clown quadrant, I have the dictator quadrant. Right, I have the value learners. I think most people are valued learners. Right, the dictator quadrant, those are dangerous people right, Especially the further right. They go and down in values because they can be really skilled people right, but they're highly manipulative because they don't have the values be successful. So I'm really glad to hear that you haven't been exposed to that kind of thing. I've consulted with a ton of leaders and I've seen this. But I've seen most people again. I think they almost fall right at the edge of the value learners. If they're coercive they're really, really an ass clown. But they can be like moving in the right direction there with some knowledge and skills.
Speaker 2:But I would hear in education it's such an easy thing to say or in behavior analytic organizations, do it for the learners, you have to do it for learners. But, Troy, as you and I know, you can't make it about the learners without making it about the employees. You could bring out the best in the learners. You've got to bring out the best in the employees. So I think even the narcissistic leaders and they're out there, brother, Believe me, they're out there.
Speaker 2:There's still a function to their behavior. They want to have the light shine on them, right? They want attention, et cetera, et cetera. I think if they understood behavior principles they would know they'll have more attention. They'll get more light shine on them, right. So there could be a shared values thing in here, Like maybe it's not specifically, you know the same values, but it's a win-win, because as they support their employees more, the employees are going to now produce better outcomes for them. They're also going to get better retention, you know their organization's going to look amazing, Even if they're not doing it because they just love people so much, like you and I. That's why we're in this. In the end, they're engaging in the right behavior to produce the right outcomes and they're getting their needs met. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:I like what you had to say because it does. It starts at the top and then goes down to the bottom, right? You can't look at the bottom and be like how do we get the results from the bottom without looking at what's all in the middle? For example, let's just talk money because it's easy to talk about it. You want to increase sales, right? So you're a manager. How do we increase sales? What do we got to do?
Speaker 1:The behavioral principle would't just look at the sales themselves, because those are just numbers that are not even possible without people engaging in the behavior to drive those sales. So, to go back to the point you said, teachers. Teachers need to feel valued. Teachers need to feel like they're paid well and they need to feel like the school treats them well so they can drive those outcomes for their learners. When you hear about a student saying oh, my teacher doesn't like me, blah, blah, all this, I like how you said that they're not bad people. The teacher is not a bad teacher. Maybe there's something wrong with that system not allowing them to teach to the best of their ability, right, the motivation is lacking. So you have to look at the system as a whole instead of just saying how do we drive this?
Speaker 1:result, because it's not possible without the behavior.
Speaker 2:No, it's not man, it's all connected. When that frontline employee is not performing well, a lot of people are pointing the finger at them, like they point the finger at the teacher, the BCBA points the finger at the RBT man. Blaming worked, brother. Right, we wouldn't be here. You know, blaming is like a dime and dozen, everybody's blaming everybody else. And, like, one of my passions is the, you know, really get people to reflect on their own behavior and the impact of their behavior on the environment, which of course means the people in the environment. And I think you know, if we get, if more people would be better observers of their behavior and the impact of the environment, we would be. And of course they value certain outcomes. Right, you've got to value people. If you don't care about people and you just see stuff as transactional, that becomes a problem, right, but even again, those people, if they do value the outcomes and they realize to get those outcomes you have to get the people to perform at a certain level, then you start to maybe make a shift there. But well, I guess you haven't had this experience, right, but it seems to me I've noticed, like a lot of people, a lot. Let me reframe that, right.
Speaker 2:I'm surprised at the number of leaders who gain their position, are not, are falling short of leadership behaviors. Right, when they get in those positions, they're using a lot of coercion. I started to think to myself how did they get to this position? But then I realized that, um, uh, troy, I I actually created a leadership prep course for education. Again, leadership doesn't matter. The principles are all the same, right, when you see it through a behavior analytic lens. Organizational behavior management is the greatest toolbox for that. But they're missing the fundamental principles of behavior. So I'm like they're not even they're not training our leaders and they're giving them way too much theory and then they're dropping them into, you know, into these environments, and their history takes over. So if you were brought up in a household where coercion was the name of the game when somebody wasn't doing what you need to do, that's what you're going to fall back to, right, because they don't know better 100%.
Speaker 1:And if you think about it from a behavioral perspective, looking at that leader who's using coercion, that behavior is probably going to be maintained by negative reinforcement, right? Their employees causing some type of aversive stimuli to them. So they just coerce them to get rid of it. So they're more likely to continue doing that in the future. If it works because coercion is the quick fix, it's maintained by negative reinforcement, if you think about it right. So you have an RBT who's pissing you off.
Speaker 1:Let's just say that. So you coerce them, you get rid of that aversive stimuli, you get them doing what they're doing, not saying that this is the best strategy. This should not be done. However, the leader is going to continue doing that in the future. If it works because reinforcement, if you get rid of that aversive stimulus, you're going to keep doing it, and I think that's why that book, coercion and Its Fallout, is really important, because it's not sustainable long term. It works in the moment, so that's why you keep doing it over and over and over again, but if you look at it long term, what is it doing Not?
Speaker 2:much Right, and I think that you know. I'm glad you actually brought that book up. Of course we all have in our bookshelves. I think you know it's a very important point in here I wish people would use that term more coercion and less absence of an environment that's not rich with positive reinforcement for value-added behavior. And that's why systems need to be built on values in the ground up, because values unpack the behavior and your systems should be deliberately designed to increase positive reinforcement for those behaviors. Right, If we're going to do that, it means we have to have some sort of measurement, and this is why it ties back to where we came from, that we have some sort of, you know, performance scorecard, right, and it could be a scale.
Speaker 2:I love Aubrey Daniels has a scale of with a performance scorecard, and it's either pinpointed behavior results, and I think it's important. Initially you might look at behaviors, right, If it's a new behavior somebody's engaging in, and then you might shift to look to what you're measuring, to results, but some sort of scale where people can know how well they're doing. The supervisor or manager knows how well they're doing as well. At the end of the week, you know, this data gets pumped out. You know how you're doing, through the month, the quarter, you know what, in terms of the scale, what you're going to get as a result of your behaviors. There's so many positive things to it and it can be simple and it should be simple. Just a few key behaviors. Do not make it sophisticated. I don't have you ever read any of Abernathy's work.
Speaker 1:I have not.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. I mean, first of all, he's brilliant. I can't touch his stuff with a 10 foot pole. To me it's way too sophisticated for organizations, right? You know we have to. You know, whenever something's sophisticated, man, that's the enemy of complexity's the enemy of execution, sustainability and scalability. You know, you gotta keep it simple.
Speaker 2:So if somebody can just look at, they have their behavior, they have a goal they're working on right and they have some sort. They have a goal, they're working on right and they have some sort of measure to know if they're moving towards that goal and there's a feedback loop that lets them see it often enough that itself is going to adjust their performance. Now you tie it into some sort of pay scale, some sort of performance pay, and then, like you know what, there's some other good things that come out of this and it makes me want to stay, it makes me want to perform better. I can see how I'm doing. I can see that I'm meeting my minimal goal for the day or for the week or whatever. I can see I went above it. That's another benefit of Aubrey's performance matrix. It has all that kind of built in, right? Let's find out where people should be and then, like above, let's recognize you for going above, and so many people are not recognized for that right.
Speaker 1:Not at all. Some people go above and beyond every day at work and never get recognized, and that's simply because maybe a leader just thinks they're doing a good job. They don't need to do anything right. They're doing a good job. Leave them be.
Speaker 1:And the thing about coercion is the employee doesn't even contact the actual, naturally occurring punishment. You're controlling their behavior through like a punishing contingency. You're just telling them oh, if you don't do this, this is going to happen. And then, if you think about it just like we teach RBTs, you got to tell the learner what they can do. Coercion just tells someone what they shouldn't do. So eventually your employees are just going to stop engaging in all behaviors. If you keep coercing them and not give them a alternative behavior to engage in, what should they do? So I like how you talked about that a little bit, because employees need to know what to do if they're going to be told what not to do. Because if you just tell them what not to do all the time, they're just going to end up not behaving at all well, that that's it, man.
Speaker 2:They're, and I mean, and there's so many gosh, there's so many negative outcomes that are associated with it, and I get, the fallout book covers this stuff. But I think, going back to what you said earlier, if you just take perspective, how would you feel if you were in that position? And I've been there, man, and I saw the individual's car I just felt sick to my stomach. It's Sunday night and I'm like I don't want to go into work the next day because I mean, when people are burned out, right, when they feel anxiety about going to work, that just means they're not contacting their positive reinforcers. And I think that's the sole purpose of a leader is to create right, remove obstacles and create an environment that are positively reinforcing for value-added behaviors, right, meaning those behaviors are aligned with important results. And this is why I wrote the leadership book Position Authority and Leadership. I talk about the four hats and how the leader needs to be designing systems based on all that stuff, man. So you know, let's do a full circle on this, folks, and I don't even know how to. I actually don't have an answer for this.
Speaker 2:In education, there is some sort of scorecard they could put together for this, right. It could be. One of the things might be it's not just if we'd have to take a look at and it would have to be the thing is they'd have to have good assessments right in place. You know, like standard acceleration charge, you know, but something easy for the teachers, but you don't have a standard. What you do is you have just based on criteria that the student's own performance, right, is better tomorrow than it was today. So every student's performance is based on where it was before and I think we tied that into some sort of pay and bonuses, right, so there's like a base pay and teachers can access this stuff.
Speaker 2:There's a whole bunch of flaws with this stuff, right, because there's like a base pay and teachers can access this stuff. There's a whole bunch of flaws with this stuff because there's kids coming in. They're just not motivated. But I think if they did it over time, teachers would start finding ways to motivate because behavior goes or reinforcement flows, they'd feel good the resources that were provided. They would seek out more. In fact, they would demand them more. They would demand better trainings because they're not being trained well and, what's more important than our educators, I mean this is the backbone of our country. They're our most important employee I believe that we have. If we're going to reduce incarceration and reduce poverty, improve quality of life, we need to support our educators.
Speaker 1:And I think the science yeah, they're working to maintain behaviors in the country they are. They're working to maintain everyone's behavior, if you really think about it. They maintain our society as it is through time, as it adapts, because we'll culturally select behaviors all the time right. Times change, our behavior changes because of cultural selection, and teachers are the reason we're able to sustain that without having all this chaos that.
Speaker 2:That is well, yes, and we have chaos part of it because teachers are not being prepared well enough, right, they're not. They're getting way too much theory, way too little actual practice, I think. I think, then we need to embed simulations, for example, into higher education so they can actually experience the consequence of their behavior good and bad, right, safely and get feedback on it. It's like in my in the fight game Troy, that's sparring, you know what I mean when you can learn during sparring. So when it comes to the real world, right, the actual fight, you've had this experience. You can do things automatically. You understand if I do this, this could happen, you know, but you experience that relatively safely. They don't have that. Also, on note, nika's actually doing research on this.
Speaker 2:Our professors aren't being trained on how to teach. Just because you're a subject matter expert does not mean you understand how to instruct. Instruction is very complex, man. It's not enough to have knowledge. You need to be able to transfer that knowledge to somebody else, create an environment where they can learn, support them in learning. You need to involve their knowledge, right, you have to shape it. And all this is very sophisticated. The lay person, the non-educator, has no idea how complex good teaching is and I admire good teachers so much and good school leaders, troy, I think, in education. I know we didn't come in to talk about education, man, but I can't, it's just my passion, I, I, I think this is the most challenging leadership position in the country. They're being dealt a very difficult hand. Right, coming back to Florence pay they can't give anybody any financial incentives that do well, right, there's nothing there. There's a shortage of teacher.
Speaker 2:So all they can do is create an environment where people feel valued, supported, where they have the knowledge and skills, dissemination and some of the stuff that you've been doing, man. So I think it's pretty cool Again, you put together like a little video of my stuff, man. I was so thankful and grateful for you to do that. Man, help disseminating. I know disseminating the science of human behavior is near and dear to my heart. My vision is a better world through behavior analysis. My mission is to help people better help themselves and world through behavior analysis. My mission is to help people better help themselves and others through behavior analysis. So disseminating is a core all my work. I'm constantly disseminating stuff. I'm constantly in my passion, you know, constantly engaging in my mission. So when I saw you doing this stuff, I'm like man, we've got some like passion here.
Speaker 1:Right. I like disseminating information. One of the biggest reasons why is because that's how I learn the best. When I'm up there making content, talking about the content, that's when it soaks into my body and I actually really learn it. This is no shot to my grad school great grad school but I learned more making content on my own page and the feedback and comments I get on my page than I did with a 60 grand degree. That's just the truth. Whether it's a bad comment, a negative comment or they're telling me I'm wrong, I'm still learning and then I don't make that mistake again in the future. I just have learned so much from disseminating the science rather than just kind of sitting there listening to someone read a definition that's been written a while ago and that's no shot to grad programs. You know, read a definition that's been written a while ago and that's no shot to grab programs. That's just a good way I learn.
Speaker 2:So, because I'm learning, I'm disseminating more and more because I really like it. I forget you'd put out something, man, and it was my memory so bad, troy, but somebody had made some comment on your post, right? I thought, man, this is real good leadership. I remember commenting on it, right? I'm like this is how people need to be more. When people say something like this and what was that, can you remind me? I think I remember.
Speaker 1:So I made a because I like to have different types of content right. I try to meet funny because I do think I'm a funny guy. I try to meet serious, professional. I try to meet scientific, experimental. I try to do all of it, I try to hit all aspects. So when I was trying to be funny, I basically said on a post and this wasn't the one you commented on, it was about Zodiac signs having nothing to do.
Speaker 1:And the behavior analytic community itself had blew me up for that, and that's understandable, right? We all have different values and beliefs. But I issued an apology right after I didn't take the post down because one I learned that post is staying up because I had to learn from that.
Speaker 2:Wait, wait, but what were they bashing you about? Tell me, because it's non-scientific.
Speaker 1:It. No, no-transcript destroying relationships over right. So I did issue an apology. I don't need to issue an apology for every wrong thing I post. That is not going to happen.
Speaker 1:However, with the circumstances and the certain people that did take it wrong, I felt like an apology had to be issued. And that's what a leader does, right when they make a mistake in the workplace for their employees. When they go in and yell at an employee for something and they go overboard, they go too far. They need to issue that apology because that's accountability. You can say I'm sorry, whatever all this, but if you don't show in your actions that you're taking accountability, people aren't going to care at all. Sorry doesn't mean anything in today's world. You need to show someone why you're saying sorry through your actions, and I like making content, so I figured it was okay. I know I can make an apology, a well edited video, and then talk about values, because at the end of the day, that post the original one was still my values. Right, I don't believe in Zodiac signs and I still don't. However, other people do and that's okay and that's what I was trying to say.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I have two things about this right. Number one is that this is where I want to talk about this behavior myopia, meaning we need to practice what we preach. Right, we need to make sure that we are engaging in the principles of behavior. A lot of people say we should never use punishment, right? Well, then they come around and the first thing they do is try to punish your behavior. Right, they're coercive and I say that, all right, you know, hey, you're wrong about that. Sometimes we do need to correct behavior. Now, I believe there's a way to do it, though, right? Coming back to the thing, if somebody, as opposed to lambasting you on social media, went in your message like hey, troy, I appreciate your content is out there. Hopefully they've been putting likes on your stuff, but I noticed that people tend to comment when they don't like something as opposed to putting likes on something, yeah, which, again, not using the same principles that we're practicing, right, and said you know, hey, I kind of felt a way about that.
Speaker 2:I'm wondering if, blah, blah, blah and just expose it to you, I gave you some feedback in a way that was not coercive To me. That is how you strengthen relationships right. To me, that's engaging in good leadership behavior. And I find that the very people who are so quick to say we need to treat people better, we need to do a scent, and blah, blah, blah, you know, and I believe in all this stuff, we really want to involve people, right? But also the people are saying that we should never use punishment. As soon as something doesn't go their way, they're jumping on one another, and I just don't believe in that. That's not the way to do it. So I want to make that. There we can be better. So if you're listening to this and you were that person, hey, we all make mistakes, we all have our own history, right. But be aware that you're engaging in coercive behavior. And if you're saying that we should not do that, try a better way, you'll get better outcomes. That doesn't mean you should never correct behavior. We have to do it. It's part of life, right, punishment being a stimulus that decrease the future occurrence of behavior. I can use that with Troy and say hey, troy, hey, when you said that I kind of felt insulted by it, man, I know you didn't mean it. Blah, blah, blah. I'm wondering if you could do this If Troy doesn't do it in the future. That just punishes behavior. If he does something else, that's better. Just reinforce one. That's a much better and far less coercive way to do it right. So it's about how you do it. There's that.
Speaker 2:Now I got to make a comment. I commented on your thing. That is because I'd love. I don't care for horoscopes themselves, it's just not me, right? Somebody loves it Great, they love it. But in terms of the signs, right, I actually. There's no science behind what I'm about to say and I commented on your post about this. It's not directed at you.
Speaker 2:I've noticed a number of behavioral patterns associated with people with different signs. Now we could say it's bias, confirmation or something like that. I don't know. I look at like a cancer sign. I'm like how can this be? These behavioral patterns are so close to who I am right, my own behavior and what I believe is this.
Speaker 2:When I say believe it's my guesstimate. I think that and it's very behavioral in nature, right? I'm guessing that somehow when we're in utero, that you think about how powerful the gravitational pull is, right, that somehow it impacts our central nervous system or something happens to us in development. In behavioral speaking, it just makes some things more or less reinforcing, right, which then ends up shaping our behavior. And speaking, it just makes some things more or less reinforcing, right, which then ends up shaping our behavior. And this can explain why there are some general behavioral patterns across people who share different signs. So of course you have environment that plays all this part. But that would make sense if, since the environment shaping behavior, this is more reinforcing than that. So total guesstimate man. Want to throw this out. I'm not asking you to comment on it, man, I'm just like it's just interesting to me.
Speaker 1:Well, I am glad that you actually commented that, because it was a way to give those people a benefit of the doubt from a behavioral perspective, because in the original post I had made I had just said those are made up signs. That was the exact words I use. So I completely actually discredited it and didn't give it any benefit of the doubt, which is where you gave it benefit of the doubt by looking at it behaviorally. Yeah, that's leadership.
Speaker 2:And I think in general. I think that there's a lot of things we need to put the behavior analytic lens on. So I don't want to discount things that are working for people. Just because we can't explain it behaviorally doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means we can't explain it that way.
Speaker 2:That's why I'm looking at emotional intelligence and a lot of people are like, well, it's emotional intelligence. Well, hold on, we can look at this through a behavior-analytic lens. Let's bring it under in our field, zoom in on it. They've got their own research. Let's put our own research on it. Let's describe this phenomena through this amazing lens that we have and we can probably learn some really great things instead of, like, ostracizing other people in other fields and doing this stuff.
Speaker 2:You know, and we need more people like you that say, yeah, screw that one up or whatever. You know what I mean, or not? Like the true point, like I'm not going to apologize if there's nothing to apologize for as well, because we don't want, you know, to be just being a sycophant or something like that, or, you know, being your behavior being constantly controlled by the masses. That's also a terrible thing, which happens a lot, you know. So tell me that we're kind of getting up to our time here, brother. But what is your main goal with disseminating? You know? What do you, what do you hope to do here with it all?
Speaker 1:What is your main goal with disseminating? You know, what do you hope to do here with it all? So glad you asked, because I'm still getting my website set up, but my goal is to basically become a marketer within behavior analysis. That would be the absolute perfect dream. Now, everyone doesn't get to live out their perfect dream right, but I've already started that a little bit. I don't know if I'll be able to ever do it full time.
Speaker 1:However, I want to market people's services. So if you have a private practice, I want you to hire me as your client to market for you, and then I want to recruit many clients to help them market their services. Products such as you know, maybe Central Reach, ABA Engine, whatever, something like that. Motivity, Rethink Not saying that I'm going to do that, but something like that. I want to help people market their ABA products. Now why? Because there's values alignment. I have experience with behavioral science, but you can go hire a generic marketer and they're going to give you generic marketing that isn't going to align with what the consumers in the field are looking to see. I do believe this is an untapped market. So, with all my marketing experience and my background in behavioral science, I want to combine them to make an actual career out of it. So that's where I'm going with that Well.
Speaker 2:So I want to support you with that, because what you just said is what I do for PCMA, right? So I'm the director at PCMA, but really I'm their ambassador, and everything that you just said perfectly describes what I do. Now I came to PCMA with the Professional Crisis Management Association. I have my own consulting business, heart and Science Consulting. I do a lot of OBM work with organizations and education. You know, really really love creating environments that brings out the best of people and I love that. But I love disseminating and I really believed and have conviction with what PCMA brought to the table. I believe in the science. I've been trained in what they do, right. So I'm like this is the greatest freaking crisis management system in the world. It's amazing. We're building fluency. So I wanted to go somewhere where I had integrity and I came in and I'm doing exactly what you want to do and I can tell you for anybody listening and maybe you want to reach out to Troy they've had, they've had months where they've had a 400% increase in sales.
Speaker 2:Now I don't make any money from sales. I'm not even like. You know I don't. I love doing what I do. You know what I mean. I want. You know I love that this is disseminating the science across the world. I'd love to support an organization that has such integrity. You know it makes me happy, so it's a win-win.
Speaker 2:There's a shared values thing in here. You know, of course I get a salary and everything like that. That's wonderful and of course I need to get paid. But to your point, because I understand the science and I can talk about it in a nuanced way where I can make it practical to people. It is an important thing.
Speaker 2:So if you guys are trying to grow your organization out there, give Troy a look. It's worked for what's going on in PCMA. They've been together for a long time and the change was the phase change was me coming in and doing that stuff. They did some other things, but just shining a light on it, that's what I think somebody like Troy can do. Brother, it was good having you know, but just shining a light on it, that's what I think somebody like Troy can do. Brother, it was good having you on. Man, I appreciate you, I appreciate everything that you're doing out here. If somebody wanted to reach out to you and I'll make sure I put this in the show notes as well, the description, but just what would be the best place?
Speaker 1:You can reach out to me on LinkedIn. Obviously named Troy Berg, he introduced me, and then my DMs on Instagram are always open, so you can always message me there. Linkedin is probably the preferred method, but if you want to email me, my email is also located on my Instagram. You go to the link tree and it'll show you the email at the top.
Speaker 2:Troy's got a passion for this. Like me, you put out your stuff For years. I put out stuff wasn't making a penny on it. Do it because I love it. You know that's what you guys want, man. You want somebody who has passion about something. They're going to go above and beyond for you. So, troy, thanks a lot, brother for coming on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for having me.
