Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist
In the Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist Show, Dr. Paul “Paulie” Gavoni looks at common issues or phenomena in our personal and professional lives, gives you his thoughts, sometimes rants about it, and provides you with practical solutions rooted in the science of human behavior.
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Thoughts & Rants of a Behavior Scientist
Bridging the Gap: Enhancing RBT Training and Supervision through OBM and Mentorship with Stephanie Waldon
In this episode I dig into the importance of improving training standards for Registered Behavior Technicians (RBTs) with special guest Stephanie Waldon, a recent master's graduate in Applied Behavior Analysis from FIT. Stephanie shares her firsthand experiences and passion for ABA, highlighting the critical need for better training, effective supervision, and meaningful mentorship. Through her journey from a novice RBT to a training manager, Stephanie recounts her initial low expectations shaped by various companies and the transformative impact of high-quality training, and the guidance of her mentor.
In this episode, we highlight the stark realities faced by RBTs because of the gap between theoretical knowledge and practical application of ABA that occurs oftentimes due to inadequate supervision and support and how incorporating Organizational Behavior Management (OBM) and robust simulations in coursework can bridge these gaps. Stephanie emphasizes the importance of supervision training in graduate programs and advocates for data-driven feedback loops to ensure RBTs are well-prepared and valued in their roles.
Join Stephanie and me in exploring the power of positive reinforcement and the importance of emotional (behavioral) support in the workplace. Learn how small gestures and a supportive organizational structure can significantly improve team morale and reduce employee turnover. We also discuss practical strategies for fostering a nurturing work environment, promoting professional development, and the vital role of leadership in creating a culture of trust and mutual respect. This episode is packed with insights and practical advice for anyone passionate about enhancing the field of ABA.
Be sure to subscribe to Dr. Paulie's Heart & Science YouTube channel for a variety of content related to behavior science and bringing out the best in yourself and others.
Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior Scientist show hosted by Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestselling author, dr Pauly. Okay, welcome back to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior Scientist podcast. I'm your host, dr Pauly, and I am here with my new and, I think, growing good friend, stephanie Walden. Stephanie, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing pretty good, pauly, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing good. I'm good. I'm grateful that you've come on the podcast to chat with me Now. Stephanie and I met through Instagram. I think I might have posted something. You might have left some feedback on it, or maybe it was vice versa.
Speaker 1:I don't really remember how it went, but it turns out that you actually you actually went to FIT and I think you just graduated with your master's in ABA. But you also have a background. You got your bachelor's in ABA, which is pretty cool, man, because my background in ABA I was out of field Back when I took my original coursework was in 2003, and it was when you didn't have to take it at the university level. Now, I had an amazing time at Behavior Analysis Inc in Sunrise, Florida. It was a really good program. It was designed at the level of a graduate program, but it was just two courses and I was a BCA BA for, like you know, almost 12 years.
Speaker 1:I was going to let the whole thing drop and I decided to carry on with it, but anyway, so it turns out, what kind of turned me on to some of the stuff that you're doing is that you do a lot of stuff with RBTs and I could see through some of your posts, like your passion about it, and you know, we chatted offline for a while about it and I was like, man, let's get online and talk about this, because RBTs are our front line warriors. They're out there doing lots of stuff and, as you and I both know and this is the point of jumping this podcast, man they're being just kind of dropped in the ring like my fighters that have not had any fight training before and they're kind of taking a beating. Have you seen that? Because, I mean, you've been an RBT for many years and you've trained RBT's. What's been your experience with, first of all, being an RBT? Why don't we start there?
Speaker 2:So I'm actually I consider myself a baby in this field Only been in it for four years as an RBT, and you know, as I you know, aba is my passion. As I progressed through my studies and everything like, I really just loved what I was doing. So I was very self-motivated in terms of finding research and making sure that I was perfecting, you know, procedures and following those operational definitions. I was really, really into it, so kind of a self-starter when it comes to that. In time I grew into roles where I was mentoring other RBTs and one of my most recent positions was training manager at the company that I was at. From there, I remember coming in amazing company, amazing people, but one of the complaints that I had was very, very straightforward told them I'm not seeing a lot of great training going on. I think it was my first week and I asked to kind of chat with the clinical director.
Speaker 1:Well, hold on. Can you pause there and make a note on that? I don't want to forget to come back to that, all right, because I think it might be important for people to understand. What did you expect when you came in there? Maybe you had no expectations, you didn't know, or were you like? All right, I'm a new RBT, I'm going to come in here and here's what I'm going to get. Was there a certain level of expectations of what you thought you would be provided, compared to what you're about to tell us that you were provided?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So up until that point my expectations were not very high, only because I had already seen how training had gone in other companies what we call overlap trainings, when you jump in with another RBT and they're teaching you the client information and just modeling. I didn't see a lot of that happening in other corporations. So coming into this one, I really didn't know what to expect. I kind of expected the same and I have to say, like my overlaps trying to learn about other you know the clients that I was going to be working with, they were not as effective as I would have hoped.
Speaker 2:Now I was very lucky actually that I had a phenomenal mentor. You know I have to give her a shout out. Chris Molfino is her name. She actually sat there. She gave me the rationale for everything. I'm really big on rationale A lot of BST, a lot of modeling, a lot of supervision. I think I had like some crazy 50% supervision or something really high. So I was lucky to have that, that mentorship. But overall I was seeing like the training itself was not very effective. I wasn't seeing a lot of you know BST. I wasn't seeing a lot of sitting down and let's read these programs and all the things that we need to be equipped with in order to come in and these clients. So you know, I'm kind of direct when it comes to things like that, of course, respectfully. And I did mention like hey, I think this could be better, this could be different, this could be different, and you know such a great leadership team that eventually they gave me the training manager position.
Speaker 1:I kind of worked my way up, helping the current training manager and then finally jumping into the position myself. Wait, so at this organization then? Because if we went back and don't name organizations, but, like in your career, you had been to other organizations? Because I see there seems to be two reasons why this happens. I mean, if you just look at it through a performance lens, right, they're not, it's either I can't.
Speaker 1:they don't know what they're supposed to do with RBTs, which is always hard for me to believe, you know, or they're not motivated to do it, they just want to drop RBTs in there so they can start getting paid Right and so. But it seems like your organization was like, until you kind of brought it to their attention, maybe they thought things were better than they were, and then you shone a light on it and then they said, well, hey, that sounds good, let's improve.
Speaker 2:In fact, you're doing so well with it. Let's let's put you in charge in it. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, that's pretty fair to say. I mean, um, it was, uh, definitely much better than other places that I had been in well, can you?
Speaker 1:can you? Because I want to hear, and maybe it's other places or other place you're heard of, right, so we're not going to say they're necessarily the place you're at or other place you're heard of, right, so we're not gonna say they're necessarily the place you're at or other place, right. But from what you know of, uh, you know what, what? What has been like the, the norm, what have you seen that you know this isn't so great for the field, this isn't so great for the rbts. Can you give me some examples of, like, some of the standards, of the low standards that you've seen out there?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, for for starters it's um know, once you walk in with that RBT credential, it's almost like you're expected to know everything already. I don't need to. You know, you took your 40 hour course. You come in here, you know what you're doing, you know what this means, you know what that means do the job, and very little checking in to see like just how well they can really do the job, Because different companies that train these RBTs have different standards of how well they want them to do this. I think it's all over the place.
Speaker 1:So, number one, they don't even have most places, or too often we don't want to overgeneralize, too often we're not bringing in people and it's not just RBTs, behavior analysts and other people, right, we don't have any measure of competency. We don't even know what level. They are right, so they're like all right, you took the 40 hours and so you should be able to do the job, and you and I both know damn well that 40 hours is not even dropping the bucket of what it requires to do the job of an RBT Absolutely not even dropping the bucket of what it requires to do the job of an RBT?
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. Yeah, so it's a lot of just dropping people in. And again, this is in general like just dropping people in into these sessions. And here's your client, here's your tablet. You know, build report, take your data and moving along.
Speaker 1:And when they're struggling, then what happens? I mean, I'm not talking about the place that you went right and how you did something differently, but RBTs are struggling.
Speaker 2:What is the norm that you've experienced? From a lot of conversations I've had with many different RBTs and I've, you know, built rapport with dozens and dozens of RBTs the main thing they say is that they never really felt supported. They never felt like um, you know, like when asking a question about a behavior intervention plan, how to execute it. Well, it's written down for you. You should be able to read it and understand it. So there was not a lot of um empathizing of you know this may not be very easily understood. You know I've heard horror stories of RBTs getting like physically injured and the BCBA was not around. Just the lack of support and feeling undervalued is what I heard from a lot of these RBTs and what do you think is at the root of that?
Speaker 1:What do you? You know, if you could, based on your experience, what you've seen like, why would a BCBA do that to the RBT? What do you think?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think that it could be just even grad school courses not being focused on supervision, just even grad school courses not being focused on supervision. One thing I did love about FIT is that you know they put a very heavy emphasis on supervision and what you're going to need to do for your RBTs and how you're going to need to support them. I think that gave me a big foundation for how I was conducting my own RBT trainings. As an RBT, I was already looking at everything from a behavior analyst lens, like I was already acting as if I were a BCBA, and that's something that when I was trained by other people when I was at different companies, I wasn't getting that. They were just kind of going through the motions and it was just, you know, the job didn't seem to be very reinforcing for them. So it's just to me it's BCBAs not having you know.
Speaker 2:And again, I've met some amazing BCBAs. You know, most recently, all the BCBAs that I've dealt with have been absolutely phenomenal. But in general, I think when I would train someone new and I actually would ask them like you know, how has your experience been before coming here? And they would tell me all these horror stories and you know, I barely made my supervision last month and my BCBA doesn't respond to my emails or just different things. That showed that they were just kind of left on their own and I was finding that I was reviewing like a lot of basic principles that you need to come in here.
Speaker 2:Yes, you have your credential, but I'm still going to say, you know, I'm going to reteach it anyways, just to make sure that you know it. And it was surprising how many were like wow, you know, I never knew that. Or oh, wait a minute, what is stimulus control? It's just like little things like that. That was just like, wow, where did you come from, you know? So I think you know the BCBAs out there, some BCBAs out there just don't have a very strong, I don't know how to put it. The skill of being able to supervise is something that is not, you know, maybe it was not emphasized in their training.
Speaker 1:I would listen there's there's zero doubt about that? I don't. This is my personal belief. I'm sure there's some, you know cons to what I'm saying, but I see nothing but pros. I think we should. I think we should, I think everybody should be trained in organizational behavior management.
Speaker 1:And the reason why is because when you start trying to get results through the behavior of others, you are doing OBM and that's everything, unless you're working one-on-one with a learner. But even then, even then, you're probably going to need let's say, you're in somebody's home, you're probably going to need the parent to do something more or less or differently to help support the generalization of the behaviors. So that is like where you shift to the OBM hat on. Supervision falls under OBM, it's a performance management approach, and so I really think that everybody should have this, and it sounds like you got some good stuff in terms of I like that. You got to put on like your BCBA hat to think about how would you manage an RBT, and that should absolutely be happening. I think that all this stuff should be happening through simulations and all coursework, and I think that you know FIT does, you know certainly has some great instructors there. I went to school. There as well, I know some of the folks are great people, but I think in general, all universities need to embed some robust simulations into their programming so when behavior analysts come out they're ready to perform.
Speaker 1:And in my world, in the fight world, in that part of my life, our simulations are sparring and you cannot expect somebody to hit mitts or hit a bag and then fight in the real fight. You need to have simulations and this is where you can learn safely and we can do simulations or analog simulations, but I mean right now, with gamification or virtual reality, I mean you could literally be walking into a classroom and doing stuff you know. Gamification or virtual reality, I mean you could literally be walking to a classroom and doing stuff you know. But at a minimum we can do some like performance-based scenarios where you experience some of the consequences, like a choose your journey thing, you know and get the feedback and why. So you can learn that. Hey, well, man, I screwed that up, the parent fired me, you know, or whatever you know.
Speaker 1:There's so many different things that we can do, but our, our folks are not coming into the field at any level prepared to meet the demands, and it's not that they're not learning on the field, they're not learning through supervision if they've got a super good supervisor, like you, but that's rare because most people are not being trained well enough to do it. So now we kind of are people are learning through trial and error, like I did and I bet you did in many cases. So many people I know and I think about if, man, if I had better skill, knowledge and skills because I'd gone through simulations and I was, you know, understood so many other facets of what it looks like in the real world I'd learn how to consult better I could have made such a bigger difference. And, more important than that, maybe I did some things that hurt people. I don't want to hurt people, you know, but I and I was doing it out of desiring to make a positive impact.
Speaker 1:But you know, coming back to your point, we just have to do a better job preparing our people for the real world. So, in including training our supervisors better so they can, you know people can have folks like your supervisor was, you know, otherwise it's. We have droves of people not performing well and they're leaving. It's hurting the, it's hurting our learners and our client base and hurting the field, so you know um yeah and you know that, um, rbt turnover is just oh, the rate is just out.
Speaker 2:It's just unbelievable. You know, like, uh, like a revolving door of rTs and you know I boil that down to insufficient training and insufficient support. When you can do your job really well, when you can walk in there confident that you're going to be helping this learner, that you're going to be doing everything right, you're getting all sorts of you know positive reinforcement from your managers, your supervisors. You know that reinforcement from your managers and your supervisors, you know that is reinforcing. You want to come back and you want to keep doing that. But when you're struggling, because you're struggling with even basic principles, or you know you weren't taught with behavioral skills training, where you're actually being going through that process of making sure that you're fluent in what you're doing, you get burned out.
Speaker 2:That's where the burnout comes from, you know. And then in turn the client suffers. The client's not getting, you know, quality care that they require with turnover rates. You know now the BCBAs have to start from scratch with a whole new RBT coming in and they have to do the process all over and over and it's just it's kind of a mess. You know it's exhausting. So I'm also sorry for the BCBAs, who really are trying, you know, they really are trying to support their staff but for one reason or another, that turnover rate makes them, you know, have to start over and that burns them out as well, you know. So it's a it's an overall problem for everyone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, you know, and, and there just so many. There are a number of people like CEOs that are, you know, there there are some that I would just say stay away from those organizations, you know. But there are some that are like, really want to make it a positive difference, but they just don't know better. My colleague Anika and I are working with somebody one of our colleagues and friends and client, christina Morales, who's local to our area, has, uh, man, she has just embedded so many organizational behavior management principles into her, um, uh, into her company, like building them on values from the ground up and, in her case, like she just she wanted to be better. She didn't know how to be better and she needed a little bit of coaching to support her and she took the ball and run with it.
Speaker 1:Right now, she's done some amazing things there, but the point being that our, our, we have to practice what we preach in our field, and that is, we have to continue to use the principles of behavior, even with our employees when we're in our leadership position or management position or supervision or any of these positions, and we forget about it, and I think this is due to our coursework I'm not saying all coursework, but I think a lot of coursework, and I think this is due to our coursework. I'm not saying all coursework, but I think a lot of coursework, because it's so focused at the molecular level, it's so focused on working with you know people, persons with disabilities that people forget about using the science everywhere. Like to me, you should never take your lens off If you're trying to figure out how to understand the world around you. You know and why people are doing what they're doing and be the best for them, and you know, help them. If that's what your value is, then why would you ever take the lens off?
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, and it's kind of, like I mentioned, like positive reinforcement for RBTs. One thing that I used to do at one of the companies I worked with worked at was I would leave little sticky notes, you know, on different RBTs, you know binders or their lockers or something, and it was just some words of affirmation, it was just something that you know, like, hey, I know this is hard, but I know that no one can do it Like you can do it, you know, and it was not, um, I wasn't trying to be like patronizing, I was being very sincere. You know, this is one of the things that we need to do with our co workers in general is. You know? I remember one time I was in an interview and they asked me, like, how do you feel about working with others? And I said, well, how do you feel about working with others? And I said, well, we are trained to build rapport with our clients.
Speaker 2:Right, because the better our rapport and I don't even like the word rapport, it's like building connections. We want to build these connections with our clients. We need to do the same with our coworkers. You know, like, overall, we all need to be on the same team. You know, like that whole cliche teamwork, team effort and all that, but that's the only way it's going to work. So I treated people in a way that I wanted to make these connections. At one of the places I worked for I had the nickname of mom. I would hear someone say hey, mom, I need this, or I need help with this, or I don't get this, and it's just. I think it's just kind of like my nurturing nature.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, but I think oftentimes some corporations treat RBTs or BTs if they don't have that credential as numbers. We need this number to fill this slot, to fill this time block, to get this billable hour here, that we forget that we have human beings in front of us.
Speaker 1:Well, even if they cared about the bottom line, I've come across my. I've had enough experiences with narcissistic leadership, many years of consulting and working and stuff. And even if even if you love attention, that's what you want to be as a CEO, or you want to make money, that's your bottom line you got to take care of your employees, no matter what. You know what I mean. If you take care of their employees, they're going to take care of you. I don't know what could be clearer to me. I mean, every time your employee leaves, it costs money. It's costing, you know, 20% of their salary, you know. So what is that? What do RVTs make these days? I don't know, you know, but that's $5,000, $6,000, $7,000, $8,000. It's costing every time they turn over and it's bankrupting the organizational memory. And certainly if you want to provide good support to the learners, the clients, that's hurting, so it's going to hurt the bottom line. So if you really want to produce some robust business results, take care of your people.
Speaker 1:Build your system on good organizational behavior management principles, which means you need to know what people's reinforcers are and you've got to make sure you're getting value-added behavior in touch with positive reinforcement. Your whole system should be designed on values from the ground up. It should be deliberately designed to deliver positive reinforcement for value-added behavior period. All the principles are the same. We just chain performance together to produce some sort of end result in these organizations. But they just don't see it. They see the quick fix, not the quick win. They see I want to make the quick buck, I want to make the quick buck, I want to do this, you know. And now like shit rolls downhill, you know. So they're putting pressure on the director, the director's putting pressure on the BCBA. The BCBA has gotten out too many clients and everybody's trying to bill and there's like man, it's just like we just have to be better. We just have to be better.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you know, speaking of reinforcement with rbt's like, by the way, like the the rate for an rbt I've seen anywhere from 13 to 27 an hour has been, which I can.
Speaker 1:I don't understand this because I know some very legit people, right, I know, like, and it's to me, I've gone to seeing these organizations where, uh, I like they're giving the, they're giving the RBTs the most they can get, right, and I said, you know what, just stick with it, because if they leave because the grass is greener, there's no way it's greener over there because there's something going on there. I'm not going to say it's fraud. I'm not not going to say it's fraud. Something is being sacrificed to give that differential. You know what I that differential? You know I mean like and so, of course, if you're an rbt, like, why you're not going to want to make 15, 17, 20 bucks an hour. We can go down the street, make 27 an hour, but it at what is the cost of that? Where is that money coming from?
Speaker 2:I don't understand it that's what I don't understand either. And, um, you know, I kind of I was thinking about this. Um, you know, last organization that I left I was trying to find, like, how does this problem get solved? Because one of the issues I was seeing was RBTs coming in and they were just venting like I'm not going to make rent, I'm not going to be able to pay my rent, and it was just like heartbreaking because you know, you have those client cancellations. When you have the client cancellations that RBT doesn't have the work, they don't get paid, they're just sitting at home just like wondering, like do I go work at the grocery store for two dollars more and not have to deal with this? At least it's like a consistent full time job. So that's where I'm actually stuck, polly, like how do we solve this problem?
Speaker 2:Like I, you know, whenever I have any kind of feedback about something that I see that is not right or it's, you know, could be better, before I approach you with that feedback, I'm going to have a whole list of solutions. You know, I came to training like I had PowerPoints with citations. It almost looked like a grad school homework assignment, you know, because I wanted to show you know why this is going to work, why doing it different is going to be beneficial to everyone, and just giving that rationale and giving that solution. So I'm very solution based when it comes to things. This in particular, I was stuck. I'm like how does this get fixed? You know, do you talk to parents about attendance, Do you? You know, I just I don't know, and that's something that, like, I'm actively going to work on finding out like what would be a rational solution to this problem.
Speaker 1:I think there are contingencies that can be put in place. I just don't remember what they were because I was a COO at a company and we had some of those issues. But, like you know, there's like performance-based pay, right. So you know, of course you have a minimum amount of hours that they need to serve to make their salary, you know. And then you know you have some bonuses for making you know X amount of hours. But you also have contingencies for the parents that way too, where they can save money for showing up you know X amount of times, or whatever. You know.
Speaker 1:So we got to. You know, figure out what people's reinforcers are. And there was. So you gotta, we gotta. You know, figure out what people's reinforcers are. And there's also things like hey, if you're not going to be able to make it this much, then we're going. There's somebody else that's waiting in line. You know, we want to be able to make sure that we have to stay solvent. We want to make sure that we are able to treat the consumers. So you know, like, if you, if you know you either still have to pay, or you know there's a, there's a minimum amount of pay for not coming you, you know that's all agreed up up front and like listen, if you're providing good service, they're not going to want to miss for the most part you know what I mean Especially if they're going to lose their spot or something along those lines. So I don't know. It's been a while since I've been in that part of it, but I think there are definitely things that that can occur up front with these contingencies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that that, yeah, yeah that. Um, when you have parents, though, like don't that, don't pay out of pocket, I think, um, you know, insurance covers everything, then that becomes uh, you know, they're not really getting hit in the pockets, for you know, he said, you're still gonna have to pay even if you don't show up. Um, so that's something that you know. I don't know how they're not gonna want to lose their.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm for those. Maybe it's like they don't want to lose their place. You know not going to want to lose their. Yeah, I'm thinking for those. Maybe it's like they don't want to lose their place.
Speaker 1:You know they don't want to lose the support, you know, and we explain like, yeah, you know, it's kind of like an agreement up front, like we have employees and we have to stay solvent, you know. So there's always going to be something. But I think if we can solve, like you know, 80% of those problems that are just going to be like and I guess we stick to the policy. But I mean, it is a big issue. I think some companies have done better with it than others. I would love to get somebody in there and talk about the good program that they've had Again. It's been so long since I've thought about that kind of stuff so I don't want to do billing and everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah and no go ahead.
Speaker 1:So do you think so, with those RBTs that are unable to make the bills? So, because we were coming back to the $13 versus $27 an hour, I think, man, I think all RBTs should be making $27 an hour. I think it would be wonderful to pay their. It's a challenging job. They are on the front line and taking these beatings, some figuratively and literally sometimes, which is, people have no idea how challenging it can be with some of these learners, especially if they have physical aggression or self-injurious behavior. It's very challenging for them. So I mean, if they're not making the money, they're not getting the hours, they're like screw this, I'm going to leave and I'm going to go to, like you said, I'm going to go to the grocery store, I'm going to get a different job somewhere else, where becoming an Rbt should be a path to becoming a bcba.
Speaker 2:you know we should be trying to lift them up and grow them within the company, don't you think? Yeah, I agree. And um, I often ask that like, uh, when I would train an rbt and ask like, hey, you know what's, what's your end goal here? Are you gonna go into being a bcba, especially the ones that have been doing it for like three, four years? You, you know, kind of like me and the response I usually got was like I don't think I could handle. You know BCBA. And I explained to them well, you know, actually being a BCBA is probably easier than being an RVT, because someone else is going to be doing that direct care and you can provide that support to them. And it almost seems like it turns them away from the field. And I've seen people who finish grad school for ABA and then suddenly decide they want to go into a completely different field, like finance or something. And this is not related to ABA, because it just left such a sour taste in their mouth from the experience and it's just I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think it really starts with you know one thing that my mentor used to do all the time she would always check on me, but she wasn't checking in on me like are you doing your work, okay, are you understanding this? She would check on me, like are you doing your work, okay, are you understanding this? She would check on me, like how are you doing stuff? How are you doing? You know, I don't want you to burn out. I'm here if you want to talk about something unrelated to work. Like you know, like she was always willing to provide that support.
Speaker 2:That was, you know, just, you're more than an RBT implementing these interventions that I wrote, you know. So to me that was very important and made me want to learn more from her. And I said to myself you know, when I hire RBT's, if I get to that point, I'm going to make sure that I do the same thing. You know, like remind them that this is very difficult work, uh, but you're a very valuable part of this work. Like without you as an RBT, like this can't be done. You know there are BCBAs who just go and do direct therapy and that's it. But if you're going to be working for another company, you're going to have RBTs. And so I learned through my journey as an RBT and as a training manager and, just you know, a student analyst, what to do and what not to do, but definitely one of the things to do is to support these RBTs, you know, even at an emotional level, because it's a very emotionally taxing job.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, first of all, your learning curve is like steep, you know, given how long you've been in the field, you certainly have, you know, learned and done an awful lot in such a short amount of time, but it's a testament to your values. My guess is, you know, whatever field you went into, you would do something similar, because it seems like you really care about people, and I respect that. I mean the fact that that BCBA came to you and I, you know, shout out to her. Was that the one from the beginning that you mentioned? That was mentioned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, chris, my man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, beginning that you mentioned, that was yeah, yeah, yeah, chris, my yeah, chris. Uh, helping you to feel safe and saying how are you doing? I love that. Like, why don't we? It should happen so much more? Uh, you know, in in checking in, um, one of the big things that I talk about and we talk about in our trainings, uh, in my books, is reciprocal feedback. Um, you know, we give feedback to help people to grow, but we also have to look at their performance as feedback for us, right? So if they're not performing to some standard, what do I need to do more, less or differently? Right? If that's the person I'm supporting, but also checking in with them and getting feedback, how am I doing for you, you know?
Speaker 1:is there something I can do? How can I be better for you? And I think if people humbled themselves like that and used that and just checked in with people, I mean, look at what it did for you. It made you feel safe I know it's like psychological safety. It made you trust them. It made you feel like you know you probably could speak to her and let her know what you're struggling with. If she helped you a little bit, you know she gave you some information that was important to you, that made your job easier, that helped you to produce some sort of valued outcomes.
Speaker 1:Man, that's positive reinforcement. She's pairing herself as a positive reinforcer. That's the kind of thing we need, because it's building your skills, it's building your retention, you know. It's creating more knowledge and skills in you. So you can help, you know, probably help her, help the RBTs and et cetera, et cetera. I mean it just has a large ripple effect and I think it's a beautiful thing, large ripple effect, and I think it's a beautiful thing. I would like to know what school she came from and how. How did she get to be that way? Or is it just that we just have some people that have such strong values that they figure it out. What do you? What do you think it was?
Speaker 2:You know that's actually a good question. I don't remember. I know she has a background in counseling, so there you go. There you go Right.
Speaker 1:There you go. Well, I think that we do in our. I did a podcast earlier with Pat Freiman and we were talking about this and I think and this is just my perspective, but I think for a long time as a field, because what he was saying was that, of all fields, everybody else, all the other fields engineering, all different sciences, astrophysics you know they speak to the public in a way that makes it easier for them to understand, but I feel like we have not focused on that, not for a long time. I think, probably maybe over the last decade. We're starting to see a shift finally, and for a long time we didn't decade there's we're starting to see a shift finally, and it for a long time we didn't. But I wonder if we didn't do it purposely, because we were trying to keep our like show that we're a legitimate field, so we need to speak sciencey, so we seem like real scientists, something like that. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I wrote about this a while back. I'll drop the article and um a link to the article. I think I shared it with you you did share with me.
Speaker 2:With me, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that I just often wonder about that because I feel we should be so much better in that area, but I think it needs to be programmed into our coursework, because it's like we're separating the humanism from the science and I think that that we've been searching for a heart, but I think we've had the heart. Like the Tin man, the Wizard of Oz, we've had the heart the whole time. It's the science. What could be more compassionate than effectively applying the science to help people, to help themselves and help others? I mean, honestly, gosh, what could be better than that? Because it's as efficient and effective as we could be if we use science.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think in our training, like it's drilled into our heads that we have to be very objective. You know, observable behavior and along the lines it just becomes so technical and it just, you know, some of the mock exams I was looking at and it's like this is kind of how we were wired to have all this technical language and then it becomes very hard to kind of separate that. You know, people have a problem like even communicating with stakeholders and like hey, don't use negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, manding technique, don't use those words. You know, like trying to teach RBTs, don't do that, because even RBTs have that problem. You know, speaking in this technical jargon. So it definitely is a problem.
Speaker 1:It absolutely is. I think that part of coursework. I think we should be able to take an event right, just an average event that's described in average words, and I think we should be able to explain it behavior analytically and then explain it to lay person right what it means behaviorally. So you should be able to take that and explain it in both ways. And I think that I don't think a lot of people can do that. I think that they might be, you know, like. I think they have to be able to take these concepts and speak two languages with them, one to the scientist and one to the non-scientist. And I think it's really important and mostly we have to build that non-scientist language because we have to communicate with our consumers, we have to disseminate the science more and help people to understand.
Speaker 1:But sometimes I wonder is it that we don't understand it well enough and that's why we're not doing it, especially with some of the things I see out there and people, even in our own field, hating on the science. Like, how could you hate on the science? It's just a science. There's nothing wrong with the science. People have misapplied it, no doubt about it. Let's get to the root cause of that, but like don't hate the science right, I agree it is.
Speaker 2:I want to go back for a second to what you mentioned about feedback from like rbts. I do remember one thing that was mentioned from several people that I had trained uh, how was this? You know, I would ask, how was the support where you came from? And they would mention, like how some bcbas would have, like, uh, social validity surveys and they would do these check-ins and have them fill them out and they would be honest in them. Like you know, I feel like I could meet, I could use more training on this BIP. I feel like I need support with this, and they would be giving that information and the BCBAs would do absolutely nothing with it. Like it was just kind of like for show you know, so that was one thing. Is it was just kind of like for show you know, so that was one thing. Is you know, as BCBAs, when I'm finally passing the exam and take this exam as a BCBA? Like that's one thing.
Speaker 1:Like making sure that we are following through when we get this feedback, that's a systems error because that data so there should be, that RBT data should be reporting out to BCBA. To their coach I'm saying this is what I need and the BCBA should be reporting out that I've responded to my RBTs and that data should be reported out right and there should be a match. Rbts said I need help. Bcba say they're giving help right, but when there's no contingency in place there, right, that's not part of the scorecard, it's not something that's looked at Again. People are going to either their values are going to drive them and if their values aren't strong enough, it's going to be.
Speaker 1:You know how can I do? Just enough to get by? You know and get paid. You know, and then there's a mix in there because you know when things get too difficult, you know you're going to get escape motivated behavior. So. But I think with a good system it keeps behavior and performance in a very clean and efficient line and that kind of stuff should not be happening, right, because it can be just a show. And then you know we have companies marketing it. Well, we check in with our people, you know all the time. Okay, what are you doing with that data? You know what does that mean.
Speaker 2:Right, and you had mentioned in one of our previous conversations, like how you know, we talked about behavior chains, and then we have these, the RBT, and then it goes to the BCBA and then the clinical director and then to, you know, the CEO or whatever. Like can you? Can you explain that again?
Speaker 1:Oh you, oh sure, yeah. So with any organization, you want to start with the result, right, the end in mind. So let's say, retention is an issue, okay. And then you want to improve that retention. So we'll say, well, what needs to happen? Well, you've already keyed in on a couple of those things, like well, rbts would probably stay if they knew better. Right, if they knew better, they would do better.
Speaker 1:So we want RBTs to be following the plan effectively, following the plan, doing these things so they can promote socially valid outcomes. We can help the learner learn, right, because that feels good. Rbts want to feel that they're doing something. They want to feel they want to see that they're making a change with the learners. That feels really good for them, right. And of course, they're getting paid, et cetera, right. So there's the different reinforcers. Now, if we want the RBTs to be able to do that, well, what's the BCBA need to doed in the plan? Training is about the skill acquisition. Coaching is about the generalization of those learned skills into the national environment. Okay, they're wonderful. So if we want that to happen uh, you know, and we, of course we want the bcba to be checking in with rbt and using their performance as a measure of them, feedback for them.
Speaker 1:What do they need to do more or less so differently if we want that to happen? Well, what do we need the director to do? Well, we need the director to be coaching the BCBAs. We need the BCBAs to be reporting out what kind of support they've given the RBTs, and they need to be looking at the RBT data. And they need to be reinforcing the BCBAs for doing it right, and et cetera. So there's got to be metrics for that and we got to chain that all the way to top the.
Speaker 1:What does the CEO need to do? Well, the CEO needs to make sure that all these principles are grounded in the values. They need to be sharing data with everybody. They need to be giving feedback across the organization. They got to be looking at the aggregate data at the executive level, but that data needs to be broken down to each level, so each person has a piece of the pie to look at. Right, because that data becomes feedback for them how well are my RPTs performing? Right For the director, how well are my BCBAs performing? Or the supervisor? Whoever it is right and up the chain. So everybody has this positive accountability Each person should be.
Speaker 1:Each person has a result that they're trying to produce. Are they producing that result? And if they're not producing that result, why? And if a lot of people are not producing the result, then you really have a systems issue. But even if only one person's not resulting, producing that result, we, it's not a we can't blame.
Speaker 1:Blaming gets us absolutely nowhere. It does the opposite, makes things worse. We have to keep on a behavior analytic lens and we have to do some sort of performance diagnostics. You know, is it can't do or don't do, you know, if they can't do, we got to give them the skills and it's not we don't have to. We keep it simple. Can you tell me what you're supposed to do? Can you show me what you're supposed to do? Can you do it quickly? Boom, that's a wrap, you know? Um, if it's a, if it's a, don't do.
Speaker 1:And, I think, got some other factors. And this is where, whereas, if we are in a position of managing somebody else's performance, and from whatever level, we have to reflect in the mirror, right, or how often are we observing? Are we giving feedback? What kind of feedback are we giving right? Are we correcting more than we're reinforcing? Are we helping people see the you know the outcome of their behaviors. Do they value those outcomes? If they don't value those and we say, well, you know, they just don't value it. Well, I believe good leadership, or good leading, actually is an MO. Right, they create value for things.
Speaker 1:No-transcript all three things at once. Right, they can barely remember two. Usually I focus on just one thing. Right, just throw the jab, just turn the knuckle over. Turn the knuckle over right, and then we do the pivot, the back foot.
Speaker 1:But anyways, the point being that at each level we have to figure out, you know, if somebody's not performing to a standard which we need to know, what that standard is. Right, coming back to your point at the beginning, we don't even know how competent people are and we need to use their own performance as their own baseline and build from there. But we don't have any of that data because too often we're not using the principles of behavior within the organization. I'm not going to, I can't, I don't want to overgeneralize that, because I know there are places like Christina's place that are doing a piece of the puzzle behavior analysis in Vero, or Liquid Park near my area she's super and there's other organizations out there that are doing the right thing, but I would love to go around. Wouldn't it be cool to go around and just find these organizations and shine a?
Speaker 2:light on them and do videos on them and write articles on them or whatever. Wouldn't that be cool? That would be amazing. And the first time you explained all this to me, like I completely understood, and I just I, I think I just want everyone else to hear it because it's just, it seems so simple. You know, like it's a lot of response effort, but it's definitely what should be happening in all these organizations and really it's just like we said at the beginning, I don't know why, you know, everyone is not taking on OBM principles and, you know, just implementing these within their own companies and it's just it just kind of mind blowing, Like we should know better. You know this is. We have the solution at hand, it's just a matter of implementing it. We do.
Speaker 1:I again I'm going to come back to, and I think it's the same thing we agree on. I think that I mean, I didn't even know what organizational behavior management was when. I came out, I knew that I had said to somebody that was working at a school that was struggling, and I said you know there was school-wide positive behavior support.
Speaker 1:Have you ever heard of that? Yeah, I have. So I said to a colleague like I kind of think we need positive behavior supports for the adults because you know, if we're going to bring out the best in the students, we have to bring out the best in adults. And I don't see any of the adults doing the things that they were trained in in relationship to this. And they said there is something like that. It's called organizational behavior management. That's why they, when they handed me the book by opera daniels called bring out the best in people, which changed my life, and it's not that anything that was profound in it.
Speaker 1:I mean, thank god aubrey wrote this stuff, but what he did was state the obvious. It's the same principles that we all know. Right, that's why this is. But this whole behavior myopia. We forget about using the principles when we're working with other adults. For some odd reason we just want to play people man and cuss at them or cuss in our head or call them lazy or do all this stuff. And I've done it, believe me. I still have to check myself against it, you know, because it's we all have our own history but know we do have the tools to be better.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's just a matter of using it.
Speaker 1:So, um, all right, so we've got about 10 minutes or so ish left. Um, I'm wondering in a, in a, in a perfect world, right, let's say that Christina had uh, uh, uh, uh, let me see, hold on, lord have mercy. I just said the wrong name. I wasn't talking about Christina Morales. I'm sorry about that. I screw up names all the time.
Speaker 2:My middle name is Christine.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, Well that can work right, all right. Well, christina Morales, you know I love you, girl. You're on my mind. When I was thinking about that stuff, we were just talking about Stephanie, right? So, stephanie, I know what Christina would say if she could wave a magic wand. But, stephanie, if Stephanie could wave a magic wand, based on what's your knowledge and again, I recognize that you are relatively new to the field, but, like man, you've making leaps and bounds. You know, especially I know some of the stuff from when we spoke offline but what are just like three things that you wish you could change right now just to make it better for RBTs let's say it was your organization when they come in. Here's what you're definitely going to do.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely some hardcore training, regardless of how long you've been in the field, whether you just got your RBT or you had it for five, six years, um, coming in like I feel all RBT should be treated as if they know nothing and it's you know. That's. One thing that I would always say is like I am not trying to insult your intelligence, you're probably going to hear me retraining you on things that you're going to look at me funny Cause it's very basic stuff. Um, and when I'm guessing, when you're retraining them, it's that you're going to look at me funny because it's very basic stuff.
Speaker 1:And I'm guessing, when you're retraining them, it's also you're assessing their competency, because you don't want to do overkill with something, but you give them training. Okay, you got that Cool, let's move on to the next.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So then, just making sure that they have that solid training, definitely incorporating BSD in that, making sure that they're comfortable and they're fluent in their skills. So number one is just that solid training. Number two is remembering that they are human beings.
Speaker 1:You know you have.
Speaker 2:You have to give them that emotional support. I know we have ethics rules that we can't, like you have these dual relationships. I'm not taking. I'm not saying like take them out to dinner and just give them that support. We recognize precursor behaviors in our learners, right when we know that a certain behavior is coming and we're looking for that and we want to stop it before it gets to that, you know, to the behavior we don't want to see. Same applies to our RBTs.
Speaker 2:You can see some precursor behaviors when they're struggling when they're getting ready to leave when they're getting ready to all the same stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's like catch those precursors before your RBT burns out. And third is just that ongoing supervision, you know, making sure that you are checking in frequently. You are, you know, reteaching skills and it's just an ever go, it's, it's an ongoing process. It should just keep happening. It's not something that, oh, she's really great. I know you do this. Well, I'll see you in two weeks or I'll see you in three weeks, especially those who are, you know, doing those in home sessions where DCBAs are not usually present. So to me I mean those three things. And you know, for bigger organizations, having someone dedicated to you know training consistently, constantly, like that, should be the only job they have. You know, nothing else but the training. And you know, I think with that in place, things could start to change. You know, of course it's not going to make the company perfect. There's always going to be a million and one different problems. But pertaining to RBTs, I think that you know that's kind of my goal down the line. This is how I'm going to treat it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good, I love that. And I think it's better to replace the word training with professional development, because in professional development, we could say training and coaching. Training is about skill acquisition, coaching is about supporting the generalization of those learned skills in the natural environment. Right, we switch from instructing people what they need to do to asking them what are they doing and what impact they're having. Essentially, you know.
Speaker 1:But to your point, yeah, we need to have somebody that's dedicated to professional development, making sure that these folks can do well, and I think we need to check in on them regularly. To your point and respond to it, there should be like on Fiverr I don't know if I'm saying it right Fiverr, fiverr, do you know the contracting thing? I have some of my editing work done from there. Anyways, I'll leave feedback for somebody, but then I get a private email from them saying like, hey, this is just between us. How do you think that went with that contractor? I just think, man, we need to do more checks and balances within organizations, but we should never, ever, ever, ever use that data to punish people ever.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Or people find a baseline right. But I think it just creates positive accountability. We should use it as much as possible to positively reinforce right. So if we're shaping more well, we set we set sub goals and accomplishments. Then that data can be used to show people like you're moving in the right direction. Look, you're doing this. Your behavior is getting better in this area. Check out the results you're producing, you know. I think in the end people want to. They want to know that they've done a good job. At the end of the day, you know a lot don't, because they're not even sure what results they should be producing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, every time I've seen any like punishing contingencies put in place to correct behavior with RBT, it backfires, it absolutely backfires, and it places the blame on the RBT where you know that's not where the that's not where you should be looking.
Speaker 1:You know like Look in the mirror, the PDC, that's what they need to look. The performance diagnostic checklist very simple. Start there before you start giving them any corrective feedback. Have you, have you created an environment where they could be successful? If you've done all that stuff okay and you've provided reasonable support and you know we could define what that means, then I think, okay, let's have a chat, then it's time for, like a tough talk, because that needs to happen sometimes. But let's not do that until we have that kind of environment.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and also making sure, like reinforcers are actually reinforcing. You know, like a $5 Starbucks gift card is not necessarily going to be reinforcing to someone. I think what I've found to be most reinforcing to to RBTs is just that positive feedback, that genuine you are doing a great job and that's not to say, like, you know, you can't tell them they're not doing something correctly. You know, when they're not doing something correctly, approach it like, hey, this is what we're going to do different. This is, you know, but reinforcers, you know, those little gift cards or it's just, it just does not work.
Speaker 1:Now, if you're relying on that kind of stuff, that's like any schools that I've gone into and they have a token economy, right, and I look in the hallways they're yelling at kids, they're giving tokens. I'm like, you know, let's try a friggin. Here's an intervention, let's call it, just be fucking nice, use my language, right, but can we just start by like smiling at the kids and doing that stuff, the tokens, all the gifts, that should be just like, hey, this is literally a token of my appreciation. You deserve much more than this. But I think that when people feel valued in an organization, right, if you have that kind of culture, people come for the money but they stay for the culture. I mean, that's literally the one of the discussions that, speaking of christina, uh, that we had with her, with her organization, um, that and that is true. But I've actually seen people leave and come back, you know, because you know you kind of want to get that 20 an hour thing.
Speaker 1:Then you're like wait a second you know I don't want to be miserable, and am I doing things that are? And I'm not saying those companies are doing something unethical. I'm not saying they're not. I don't want to be miserable, and am I doing things that are? And I'm not saying those companies are doing something unethical. I'm not saying they're not. I don't know. I just don't understand how it's happening. But anyways, I think you know people want to feel valued. They want to feel like they're doing a good job. At the end, you know most people aren't leaving for the money that we leaving because of bad leadership, whatever role that's at. I think you know bad systems, bad leadership it could be good people I'm not saying they're not good people but there's a system there that's not just helping people, you know, be as successful as they can be and get in touch with their reinforcers. End of story.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that's the key right there feeling valued. You know, I've seen RBTs coming to me and telling me like, if you need help with training, if you need help with this, I would love to do that and, oh my gosh, I jumped on that so fast.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a measure of your leadership, though. When people come to you and ask you want to volunteer, that's want to do behavior right, as opposed to have to do behavior when you hear people saying, well, I don't want to do that, it's not my job. That's really great stuff. That's wonderful.
Speaker 2:That was like my reinforcer, you know, like seeing people coming in and creating a team where they would you know these are the designated people. Hey, if anyone else wants to do this, let me know. And I would have people coming in and saying, hey, I want to be a part of this, I want to be a part of this training. So you had, like, lead trainers, you know that were helping me out, and it was just like it just makes everything easier, not just for me but for them. The new RBT is coming in and for the learners and everything. So, yeah, feeling valued and, you know, playing up on people's strengths, recognize those strengths. You do really good when you're sitting down and doing DTT with your learner. Hey, do you mind if I bring this person to watch you for 30 minutes?
Speaker 1:Huge huge reinforcer. Or even saying like I noticed that kid's behaving so well. What did you do? That's great.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. It was just a lot of reinforcing those good behaviors from the RBTs and that was good enough to keep them going. Didn't need a you know five dollar gift card. They didn't need this. It was just feeling valued for their that's at the core of it.
Speaker 1:Man, if you live, if you live down here, I would so try to plug you into christina's organization. You'd be a perfect fit there sounds awesome yeah yeah, it sounds like a match made in heaven. Well, listen, we're up at the end of this hour here, steph, and it's been a fun chat. I appreciate you coming on to chat with me, and when are you sitting for your certification, by the way?
Speaker 2:Very soon.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know, I put in my application. I actually prolonged putting in my application for way too long. I had a lot of things going on and finally I was like, okay, let me just put in this application. I was just talking to a friend of mine who just did the same thing. We've been sitting on it for so long, so I'm really just waiting on the board right now to get back.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, you're lucky At least when you take the test now. You don't have to wait for like three months yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh man oh yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:I think when I did it it might have been six months, I don't remember it was a while. But I remember also being at the local, the state conference down here, faba, and you know some people running up and down the hallway. They pass, and then you'd see somebody over the corner like crying you know it's sad, no matter what you know.
Speaker 1:It's just repetition. Some people say they're not good test takers. I'm like no, that's not it. You're not a good test prepper because if you prep well enough and you do like small chunks, over time distributed we talked about this a little bit yeah, you'll do fine, and if you don't do fine just means you just need to keep doing.
Speaker 2:That's all just repetition there you go and, um, you know, thank you for giving me the platform, because this is, this is really a passionate subject for me, you know, passionate, a passionate topic. And it'll be interesting, once I'm I'm a credentialed BCBA, to come back and see like is my perspective different, you know, like once I have that credential and I'm actually, you know, Don't lose this perspective.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's going to be different.
Speaker 2:I hope not.
Speaker 1:Everything you're saying is right on. It's not. You know, certainly, if you become a CEO, there are a lot of other things that you have to think about, but your perspective is still right on spot. You know, I mean, that's right on point. So all right. Well, when you do get your behavior analyst, certification, make sure you give me a shout. You know, and you know, eventually, when you own your own company, we'll get you back on here, maybe before that, when you're in your supervisor role, and we'll see how it evolves from you, how you're respectable. We'll pull out this podcast and you can compare notes. How about that?
Speaker 2:That sounds perfect, thank you.
Speaker 1:If somebody wanted to reach out to you? What's the best ways? Your email, or do you just want them to contact you on LinkedIn? I can drop this in the show notes.
Speaker 2:LinkedIn and probably Instagram are probably my two main ones right now.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll link those both to the show notes. So well, it's been a pleasure and I look forward to chatting with you more.
Speaker 2:Sounds good, paulie. Thank you, bye-bye.
